054/A FFG Thread II

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
So all you're saying is generically that the 056 has a combat data system, like every other warship in existence. In which case your statement lacks all relevance to the discussion.

Yes, these ships have a combat data system, very likely to share libraries with the CMS of larger ships.

No, you have no evidence that ATECS doesn't have long range air defense capability. What you are doing is presuming that it doesn't on the basis that current ATECS ships use ESSM rather than SM-2. In fact the best that you can achieve is to say that you have no idea what ATECS full capability is, which is unambiguously a fact.

It does not matter. The ships currently do not have long range air defense capability. Unless they are equipped with SM-2 now, which they aren't.

Nah. If a steel mast disrupts the function of a radar, then the obvious solution is an aluminum mast. And given the location of the mast directly behind

Aluminum mast is flammable. One reason why the US went with all steel for the Burke. If the Japanese are following the US example, they would also be using steel.

the rotating radars, I would make aluminum the default assumption rather than steel. Also, even if the EW system interfered with the radar, which you do have any evidence that they actually do, they would only cause interference when they are actually active, which would only be in the setting of an inbound missile that is close enough to be influenced by the ship's EW system. That should almost never happen in the first place, and if it by chance does happen, then long range air surveillance would be the very last of your worries.

You seem to think that EW is something that is only active. There is also the passive element of EW which is meant to receive radars and other signals. Often this is how one ship detects the other the earliest by detecting their radar signals, which often comes to their search radar signals, the long band kind. Your own L-band blowing into these receivers won't help at all.

Wrong. First of all, there is no "time-sharing" with mechanical illuminators. None at all. The Aegis Mk 99 FCR is mechanical CWI (continuous wave illumination), which means the ESSM or SM-2 rides a continuous beam all the way in until impact. Only ESAs are agile enough to perform ICWI (interrupted CWI), and only high C-band (or higher) ESAs, since they need to have enough resolution to qualify as FCRs in the first place. Second, "time-sharing" (i.e. ICWI) only applies specifically to APAR, which first pioneered the technique, and probably to later ESAs like EMPAR, Sampson, and SPY-6 (the X-band portion); it is likely that 346A's C-band portion is also capable of ICWI. Earlier radars like the FCRs used on the Murasames and the Orekhs on the 054As, do not "time-share", if by that you mean ICWI.

Not true. ESSM and SM-2 can be datalinked during their midphase flight, and you only light the target during terminal phase. So while missiles 3 and 4 are on flight, missiles 1 and 2 are being served with a lighted target. When Missiles 1 and 2 are consumed, Missiles 3 and 4 are then served with a lighted target by the SPG-62, while Missiles 5 and 6 are now on flight and on their way, guided by datalink, the data coming from the SPY-1. That's Time sharing. Its not as cool as APAR though, since a PAR with digital forming beams can form any number of CWI beams to suit each missile in the air, allowing for more robust simultaneous engagement.

Riding a continuous beam, the problem with that your missile seeker is too far to pick up the target with a strong lock even when illuminated since the seeker is outside of the terminal catch basket.

And once more, Time Sharing isn't ICWI. Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination is another subject entirely that is completely unrelated and has something to do with the continuous wave form. And that has been around for a long time.

I think it is ludicrous to believe that Chinese missile sensor technology of the 1990's is on par with Japanese missile sensor technology of the 1990's. This is such pure fantasy that even a hardcore PLA fanboi should be ashamed to claim this. Regardless, your assertion that certain PLAN ships are "strong" in ASuW is utterly surreal in the face of modern naval combat where advanced combat data systems that can track hundreds to thousands of targets simultaneously will simply laugh at the difference between one ship's 8 vs another ship's 16 missiles, or 180km range missiles vs 150km range missiles, or even supersonic vs subsonic missiles. These ships' missile complements may be "strong" against Royal Thai Navy ships, but against adversaries like the USN and JMSDF, and even RAN and ROCN ships, they are certainly not strong. Against modern navies you literally need a swarm of ASCMs, on the order of hundreds of simultaneously inbound missiles, attacking from multiple directions. Something that can only succeed with a coordinated launch by ships, subs, fighters, and shore-based batteries.

What makes you think that the sensor hasn't been upgraded ever since? Furthermore, the back end of it, including the CPU and the DSPs. Even older missiles are subject to upgrades, the guidance section being changed.

"Hundreds and thousands of targets?" If a radar displays this on a terminal and you have 30 seconds to determine what is the threat and to confirm it, you are in big trouble. Let's say, what if hundreds of those blips on the screen are the radar scatter from sea waves?
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
What makes you think that the sensor hasn't been upgraded ever since? Furthermore, the back end of it, including the CPU and the DSPs. Even older missiles are subjected to upgrades, the guidance section being changed.

"Hundreds and thousands of targets?" If a radar displays this on a terminal and you have 30 seconds to determine what is the threat and to confirm it, you are in big trouble. Let's say, what if hundreds of those blips on the screen are the radar scatter from sea waves?

i would add that we do have some compelling evidence that advanced/more recent variants of YJ-83 do exist.

At an open day of 056 a few years ago, a plaque identified the YJ-83s as "YJ-83J" which could reasonably be interpreted as a more recent variant of YJ-83.

Furthermore, even in absence of this YJ-83J variant, I think it is also quite logical to suggest that improved variants of a missile first introduced in the 1990s which remains in service today, will likely have experienced internal upgrades. It's not like such upgrades would be reported on in PLA press and I doubt such information would be explicitly conveyed by big shrimps either.



yj83j.jpg

yj83j plaque.jpg
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Yes, these ships have a combat data system, very likely to share libraries with the CMS of larger ships.
Yes, and you have still diluted this point to the point of uselessness. Your original intent was to try and downgrade ATECS by comparing it to the 056 combat data system. This approach has failed.

It does not matter. The ships currently do not have long range air defense capability. Unless they are equipped with SM-2 now, which they aren't.
Moving the goal posts again, I see. We are talking about inherent ATECS capability, NOT current ship capability. Does ATECS have inherent long range capability? I don't know. Also, YOU don't know.

Aluminum mast is flammable. One reason why the US went with all steel for the Burke. If the Japanese are following the US example, they would also be using steel.
The Japanese certainly didn't follow the US with its radar design here so how ludicrous would it be for Japan to follow US practice of designing steel superstructures/masts for the Murasame and other classes? LOL The US only started reverting back to steel superstructures with the Arleigh Burke, so it certainly has a past history of aluminum. Many modern ships also use aluminum so it's not like some kind of radical idea.

You seem to think that EW is something that is only active. There is also the passive element of EW which is meant to receive radars and other signals. Often this is how one ship detects the other the earliest by detecting their radar signals, which often comes to their search radar signals, the long band kind. Your own L-band blowing into these receivers won't help at all.
Just one example: take a look at where the ESM mast of the Type 45 is compared to where the SMART-L is. Ask yourself how the ESM mast can function with the SMART-L constantly sweeping radar signals into it. I guess you have never heard of "blanking". It's been around for decades.

Not true. ESSM and SM-2 can be datalinked during their midphase flight, and you only light the target during terminal phase. So while missiles 3 and 4 are on flight, missiles 1 and 2 are being served with a lighted target. Riding a continuous beam, the problem with that your missile seeker is too far to pick up the target with a strong lock even when illuminated since the seeker is outside of the terminal catch basket.
There is no "time-sharing" of any kind in this description here. And why is that? Because you are describing CWI. A CONTINUOUS BEAM, not shared with any other target until that target is destroyed, is the one and only distinction between CWI and ICWI.

And once more, Time Sharing isn't ICWI. Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination is another subject entirely that is completely unrelated and has something to do with the continuous wave form. And that has been around for a long time.
What do you mean "once more"? There wasn't a first time where you said time-sharing isn't ICWI. And if you had said it, you would still be wrong. It has NOTHING to do with "continuous wave form", whatever you mean by that.

Use some Google-fu and get a clue, man.

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And I quote: "The Mid-Course Guidance and Sampled Data Homing function is based on Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination (ICWI), a Thales development with the APAR partners in the APAR radar program that enables a single missile control radar to guide several missiles simultaneously to several threats."

What makes you think that the sensor hasn't been upgraded ever since? Furthermore, the back end of it, including the CPU and the DSPs. Even older missiles are subjected to upgrades, the guidance section being changed.
Where is your evidence that YJ-83 seekers are being or have been upgraded? None. Better seekers are typically incorporated via blocks of new production missiles, since the overwhelmingly most expensive part of a missile is the seeker and the hardware that supports it, and putting a new seeker into an old missile body is penny-wise and pound-foolish. It is certainly not a common practice, and one you would definitely have to provide evidence for.

"Hundreds and thousands of targets?" If a radar displays this on a terminal and you have 30 seconds to determine what is the threat and to confirm it, you are in big trouble. Let's say, what if hundreds of those blips on the screen are the radar scatter from sea waves?
What??? Do you or do you not understand how Aegis and similar systems work? You think in an environment where there are hundreds or even thousands of targets, that the Aegis system will display every last one for human intervention to occur? LOL You have now missed the ENTIRE point of Aegis and similar systems. Aegis isn't for shooting down lone fighters or a couple missiles like what you have probably seen in the movies. Aegis is for when human decision-making is utterly overwhelmed by the sheer number of targets and automation has to take over in order to identify, track, prioritize, and attack the multitudes of targets that will characterize modern warfare and especially enemy missile saturation attacks. No, there will be no terminals displaying blips on radars for humans to have "30 seconds" to make decisions on. Once Aegis is fully turned on, you will be doing little more than sitting back and watching it do the work that it was meant to.
 
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... There is also the passive element of EW which is meant to receive radars and other signals. Often this is how one ship detects the other the earliest by detecting their radar signals, ...
interestingly, at the time the first RN battleship obtained a radar (the Rodney, could be in 1938 but don't quote this date, I write off top of my head now),

it was unclear if it's an advantage or DISadvantage to mount it: the radar was let's say crude, and the Opfor would know something is coming ...

as we now know, the RN made the right choice LOL
 
...

What??? Do you or do you not understand how Aegis and similar systems work? You think in an environment where there are hundreds or even thousands of targets, that the Aegis system will display every last one for human intervention to occur? LOL You have now missed the ENTIRE point of Aegis and similar systems. Aegis isn't for shooting down lone fighters or a couple missiles like what you have probably seen in the movies. Aegis is for when human decision-making is utterly overwhelmed by the sheer number of targets and automation has to take over in order to identify, track, prioritize, and attack the multitudes of targets that will characterize modern warfare and especially enemy missile saturation attacks. No, there will be no terminals displaying blips on radars for humans to have "30 seconds" to make decisions on. Once Aegis is fully turned on, you will be doing little more than sitting back and watching it do the work that it was meant to.
in the fragment you quoted
"Hundreds and thousands of targets?" If a radar displays this on a terminal and you have 30 seconds to determine what is the threat and to confirm it, you are in big trouble. Let's say, what if hundreds of those blips on the screen are the radar scatter from sea waves?
I think
Tam
didn't mean somebody (a Navy Officer) pulling a trigger, but meant the reaction time would be generally short

I can't imagine
Tam
wouldn't know about automated engagements by a CIWS, a dual-purpose naval-gun, a Sea Viper etc. etc.
bu this is not to talk for
Tam
LOL
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
in the fragment you quoted

I think
Tam
didn't mean somebody (a Navy Officer) pulling a trigger, but meant the reaction time would be generally short

I can't imagine
Tam
wouldn't know about automated engagements by a CIWS, a dual-purpose naval-gun, a Sea Viper etc. etc.
bu this is not to talk for
Tam
LOL
He is clearly referring to humans being present in the decision-making, or his response doesn't make sense. Human intervention caused tragedies like the Vincennes shooting down of Flight 655, where an Aegis system provided the correct information and the humans looking at it interpreted the incorrect information. If that particular engagement had been fully automated, that airliner would have been completely ignored by Aegis. As it happened, the captain shot it down and killed 290 people.
 
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