Ask anything Thread

I heard there's a convention not to allow female into submarine. is it right?
exactly what "female" do you mean?

definitely not servicewomen:
Apr 19, 2018
30656273_2215856528431456_9215243188476837888_o.jpg

from the USNI News
Navy’s Submarine Service Wants More Women
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ending with
“It’s an operational imperative for the Navy to increase our numbers of women so we are frankly targeting them in our recruiting efforts and our messaging because that’s where the talent is,” Burke said during the hearing. “Our new ad campaigns prominently feature women. Our most recent one, has a female submariner earning her dolphin.”
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I have never seen women on any of the PLAN's publicity pics or videos with submarine crews, of which more than enough is shown, like in the last few days. We have seen women, for example, aboard the Liaoning as officers.
 

SteelBird

Colonel
After searching, I found an article titled: "Women to be allowed to serve on submarines for the first time since ban in 1901". So this means that there were such a policy but now has been levered. I believe that some navy still adopt this policy. By the way, guys on DefenseTalk have a whole thread discussing this topic.
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After searching, I found an article titled: "Women to be allowed to serve on submarines for the first time since ban in 1901".
apparently you refer to
Women to be allowed to serve on submarines for the first time since ban in 1901
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2 September 2011


So this means that there were such a policy but now has been levered. I believe that some navy still adopt this policy. By the way, guys on DefenseTalk have a whole thread discussing this topic.
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I've read about service on early (WWOne era) subs and for example
  • a Torpedo Operator slept on the torp (until if launched, but it usually wasn't, as it was the most precious weapon, to be used against a warship only, at a considerable risk then)
  • there was no freshwater on board except for drinking
  • there was toilet on board
I think this environment wasn't suitable for women, call me sexist LOL!
 
Replying to everyone above. @Viktor Jav @Bltizo @AndrewS

Currently I think any talk of China protecting its SLOCs or anything else beyond the 1st island chain is beyond its capability against a near peer, peer, or superior, opponent. Indeed it spills over into international relations and a lot depends on how other countries align and exactly what triggers a conflict.

The most likely flashpoint for China continues to be a Taiwan scenario, potentially with the US, Japan, and even South Korea intervening against China. In this context China needs sufficient expeditionary forces to flank primarily Japan to more effectively hold their east at risk while taking the fight away from China's mainland, here South Korea's naval and air forces need to be kept at bay as well, in order to deter their involvement in the first place. Even for Taiwan itself China will be more effective at recovering Taiwan militarily if it has the expeditionary forces to flank it and approach from the east early on enough.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Replying to everyone above. @Viktor Jav @Bltizo @AndrewS

Currently I think any talk of China protecting its SLOCs or anything else beyond the 1st island chain is beyond its capability against a near peer, peer, or superior, opponent. Indeed it spills over into international relations and a lot depends on how other countries align and exactly what triggers a conflict.

No disagreement there.


The most likely flashpoint for China continues to be a Taiwan scenario, potentially with the US, Japan, and even South Korea intervening against China. In this context China needs sufficient expeditionary forces to flank primarily Japan to more effectively hold their east at risk while taking the fight away from China's mainland, here South Korea's naval and air forces need to be kept at bay as well, in order to deter their involvement in the first place. Even for Taiwan itself China will be more effective at recovering Taiwan militarily if it has the expeditionary forces to flank it and approach from the east early on enough.

If we want to talk about rationalizing PLA and PLAN procurement, and especially in terms of carrier procurement, I have an overall "theory of everything" that I use to make sense of. I'll crosspost it from a post I made elsewhere:

==

I've personally long conceptualized the PLAN and PLA's two main strategic directions as "westpac oriented" and "non-westpac oriented".

In the short term to medium term future (5-15 years, let's say), the "westpac oriented" direction will involve seeking the ability to fight a high intensity air-naval-missile conflict in the western pacific limited to the first and possibly second island chains. However, in this same period, the "non-westpac oriented" direction is one where China faces risks in the Indian Ocean by nation states and non-nation state actors that have the ability to threaten Chinese SLOCs, Chinese investments, and Chinese nationals, all of which exist in the Subsaharan Africa region, the MENA region, as well as the Indian Ocean -- for this "non-westpac oriented" direction, it can be basically described as needing an ability to fight a low to medium intensity conflict in blue water, where power projection will be necessary. It would be a strategic disaster if Chinese SLOCs or Chinese investments were threatened and China lacked the ability to defend them. It is important to note that the "non-westpac" direction is one where the PLA's adversary is NOT the US or a major US ally.

Therefore, in the short term to medium term future, there is a need to reconcile the force structure that is most optimal for a "westpac oriented" mission (which would not involve big blue water power projection ships like carriers and may include more SSKs and land based missiles among others), vs a force structure that can also fulfill the "non-westpac oriented" mission (which would require big blue water power projection capabilities that can operate in a low-medium intensity conflict against opposing nation states or non-nation state actors).

In the medium to long term future (15-30 years, let's say), the "westpac oriented" direction will likely build on the short-medium term goal of fighting a high intensity air-naval-missile conflict in the 1st and 2nd island chains, but I believe by this point Chinese capabilities would have advanced to a point where the goal would be to dominate the 1st and 2nd island chains through air-naval-missile forces, while also having the capability to push out and fight US pacific forces beyond the 2nd island chain -- essentially a high intensity warfare scenario in blue water where China will not have as big as the home base advantage that they would have when fighting in the 1st and 2nd island chains -- both sides would be fighting in "even" territory, so to speak. For the high intensity warfare at blue water scenario, it will of course require a high end combined task force that includes but is not limited to large aircraft carriers which will likely remain relevant for providing organic CAP, airborne strike and airborne AEW&C capabilities to the task force. The "non-westpac oriented" direction for the medium to long term would likely similarly build on the capabilities of the short to medium term described above, where PLA expeditionary and power projection capacity will increase overall, as well as having the ability to wage high intensity war against more capable nation states (not dissimilar to US capabilities today), and to defend their SLOCs in the IOR against medium to high intensity nation states as well if it came to that.

Essentially, in the short/medium term China has the dual goal of having to fight in the westpac against a high intensity adversary, while also having to develop a power projection capability for blue water against low to medium intensity adversaries. That necessitates at least an elementary level of power projection that China's current trajectory of carrier procurement and amphibious assault ship procurement can be seen to remedy. While power projection ships are not optimal for a westpac high intensity conflict, they are fortunately able to provide some additional flexibility and capability in such a conflict even if they don't offer the best opportunity-cost... However that is certainly the "less worse" choice compared to if the PLA were called upon to conduct an expeditionary power projection mission (non-westpac) and lacked a credible power projection capability at all by virtue of investing the majority of their funds into weapons and platforms whose reach and relevance was limited to the westpac.

In the medium/long term, China will want to have the ability to dominate the westpac, and to push the fight out beyond the westpac into the central pacific if not more against the US if necessary -- which will also require large naval task forces that will have to include a high end, mature carrier force for their one of a kind organic aviation capabilities -- while also having the ability to deploy larger scale, complex power projection missions in blue water to defend their global interests and SLOCs in blue water against more capable nation state actors. Both of these medium/long term westpac and non-westpac strategic directions require a mature, capable carrier force -- which of course requires the PLAN to start to operate carriers sooner rather than later so they can build up the expertise and experience to fulfill those high end missions in the medium and long term.
 
No disagreement there.




If we want to talk about rationalizing PLA and PLAN procurement, and especially in terms of carrier procurement, I have an overall "theory of everything" that I use to make sense of. I'll crosspost it from a post I made elsewhere:

==

I've personally long conceptualized the PLAN and PLA's two main strategic directions as "westpac oriented" and "non-westpac oriented".

In the short term to medium term future (5-15 years, let's say), the "westpac oriented" direction will involve seeking the ability to fight a high intensity air-naval-missile conflict in the western pacific limited to the first and possibly second island chains. However, in this same period, the "non-westpac oriented" direction is one where China faces risks in the Indian Ocean by nation states and non-nation state actors that have the ability to threaten Chinese SLOCs, Chinese investments, and Chinese nationals, all of which exist in the Subsaharan Africa region, the MENA region, as well as the Indian Ocean -- for this "non-westpac oriented" direction, it can be basically described as needing an ability to fight a low to medium intensity conflict in blue water, where power projection will be necessary. It would be a strategic disaster if Chinese SLOCs or Chinese investments were threatened and China lacked the ability to defend them. It is important to note that the "non-westpac" direction is one where the PLA's adversary is NOT the US or a major US ally.

Therefore, in the short term to medium term future, there is a need to reconcile the force structure that is most optimal for a "westpac oriented" mission (which would not involve big blue water power projection ships like carriers and may include more SSKs and land based missiles among others), vs a force structure that can also fulfill the "non-westpac oriented" mission (which would require big blue water power projection capabilities that can operate in a low-medium intensity conflict against opposing nation states or non-nation state actors).

In the medium to long term future (15-30 years, let's say), the "westpac oriented" direction will likely build on the short-medium term goal of fighting a high intensity air-naval-missile conflict in the 1st and 2nd island chains, but I believe by this point Chinese capabilities would have advanced to a point where the goal would be to dominate the 1st and 2nd island chains through air-naval-missile forces, while also having the capability to push out and fight US pacific forces beyond the 2nd island chain -- essentially a high intensity warfare scenario in blue water where China will not have as big as the home base advantage that they would have when fighting in the 1st and 2nd island chains -- both sides would be fighting in "even" territory, so to speak. For the high intensity warfare at blue water scenario, it will of course require a high end combined task force that includes but is not limited to large aircraft carriers which will likely remain relevant for providing organic CAP, airborne strike and airborne AEW&C capabilities to the task force. The "non-westpac oriented" direction for the medium to long term would likely similarly build on the capabilities of the short to medium term described above, where PLA expeditionary and power projection capacity will increase overall, as well as having the ability to wage high intensity war against more capable nation states (not dissimilar to US capabilities today), and to defend their SLOCs in the IOR against medium to high intensity nation states as well if it came to that.

Essentially, in the short/medium term China has the dual goal of having to fight in the westpac against a high intensity adversary, while also having to develop a power projection capability for blue water against low to medium intensity adversaries. That necessitates at least an elementary level of power projection that China's current trajectory of carrier procurement and amphibious assault ship procurement can be seen to remedy. While power projection ships are not optimal for a westpac high intensity conflict, they are fortunately able to provide some additional flexibility and capability in such a conflict even if they don't offer the best opportunity-cost... However that is certainly the "less worse" choice compared to if the PLA were called upon to conduct an expeditionary power projection mission (non-westpac) and lacked a credible power projection capability at all by virtue of investing the majority of their funds into weapons and platforms whose reach and relevance was limited to the westpac.

In the medium/long term, China will want to have the ability to dominate the westpac, and to push the fight out beyond the westpac into the central pacific if not more against the US if necessary -- which will also require large naval task forces that will have to include a high end, mature carrier force for their one of a kind organic aviation capabilities -- while also having the ability to deploy larger scale, complex power projection missions in blue water to defend their global interests and SLOCs in blue water against more capable nation state actors. Both of these medium/long term westpac and non-westpac strategic directions require a mature, capable carrier force -- which of course requires the PLAN to start to operate carriers sooner rather than later so they can build up the expertise and experience to fulfill those high end missions in the medium and long term.

I pretty much agree with your "westpac" view of PLA development and your short/medium/long term timelines. However I think your concepts are anchored upon Western notions projecting themselves on China rather than China's own notions. Though this may make it more easily understandable by an audience more familiar with Western thinking, it also has inherent bias and inaccuracy.

I would refer to your "westpac" view as "homeland defense" view for China and it would not aim for more than dominating up to the 1st island chain by military means and being able to counter threats from the 2nd island chain before these threats can meaningfully affect the aforementioned. The core Chinese concern is Taiwan, either its recovery by China or prevention of it falling under another country's orbit who can in turn use it to threaten the Chinese mainland, as Japan had done during its colonial era through WW2. The secondary concern are the ECS and SCS islands China considers its territory, again as much for their control by China as prevention of them falling under the control of others who can in turn use them to threaten the Chinese mainland. The parallel but non-territorial-per-se approach applies to the waters within the 1st island chain.

These are valid Chinese concerns as the 1st island chain countries include multiple qualitative peer and potentially near peer militaries, and hosts and potential hosts of large forward US bases with the capability to threaten the Chinese mainland. These forces already include, will soon or can easily include even more, significant expeditionary forces including carriers, amphibious air, naval, and ground assets, as well as strategic bombers, ballistic and cruise missile capable ships and subs.

Due to the quantity, immovable location, and inherent interests of these countries, it is immeasurably more effective, efficient, and realistic even for a much more developed and powerful China in the future, as it has in the past, to seek diplomatic accommodation with them rather than to attempt any sort of military domination beyond within the 1st island chain. A key exception is when 1st island chain countries host third party forces that are even more of a threat to China, but even here it makes sense for China to merely hold the local countries just as at risk as China in any conflict to deter participation in action against China in the first place rather than to outright dominate them.

For the above homeland defense needs China requires having significant expeditionary forces to operate within and along the 1st island chain. Because of the heavy military and diplomatic burden of China's homeland defense needs, a China that does not overextend itself will never bother with long distance power projection to the scale of participating in any sort of full scale conflict, which requires forward basing far beyond the scale of the first ever Chinese overseas base in Djibouti, even with a much less capable nation state. And if China achieves sufficient security through diplomatic means with local countries it is unnecessary for it to try to do so through military means unless a third country militarily threatens local countries.

Which brings us to the US threat to China, which is once again best dealt with from the Chinese point of view through diplomatic accommodation or competition. Because of China's homeland defense burden it is unrealistic for China to push deeper into the Pacific from a deterrence standpoint. It is also unnecessary as long as the ultimate hedge of nuclear MAD remains viable without China needing to move its forces further out.
 
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