J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI
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The F-22 actually had a huge weight increase from design to production; the YF-22 weighed only 15000 kg, whereas the production version is around 20000 kg. The Su-27 Flanker weighing around 16500 kg, the J-20 can be said to be in the 15000-16500 kg range empty.
That said, the odd thing is how unagile the J-20 is for an aircraft with such thrust to weight and wing loadings. On full afterburner, with just AL-31FN3 (iirc), the aircraft should have a T/W slightly below 1, when fully loaded, and have a good 1.25 T/W at 60% fuel. Wing loading at 60% fuel should be around 300 kg/m^2, going with the 75m^2 figure. (This assumes 16 tons + 7.2 tons for 60% fuel with 12 tons fully loaded fuel).
That said, the odd thing is how unagile the J-20 is for an aircraft with such thrust to weight and wing loadings. On full afterburner, with just AL-31FN3 (iirc), the aircraft should have a T/W slightly below 1, when fully loaded, and have a good 1.25 T/W at 60% fuel. Wing loading at 60% fuel should be around 300 kg/m^2, going with the 75m^2 figure. (This assumes 16 tons + 7.2 tons for 60% fuel with 12 tons fully loaded fuel).
Stop trying to sneak in your own presumptions as widely held beliefs or positions please.
I don't think there is many if any other people here that believe that we've seen footage showing anything near representative of how agile the aircraft actually is.
Look, if your retort is "we can't know how agile the J-20 is", from the available evidence, it's not that agile. It is possible that eventually we'll get "thrust vectoring owns the skies, this baby turns on a dime Macross-Zero-style" vids of the J-20, but the turns we've seen, whether in parade mode or leaked flight testing, have been relatively disappointing.
I mean, put the F-22 through the same argument and we can assume that even if the J-20 is agile, it's still outclassed by similar-generation aircraft.
I mean, put the F-22 through the same argument and we can assume that even if the J-20 is agile, it's still outclassed by similar-generation aircraft.
No, my position is that trying to judge how agile the aircraft is from available evidence is illogical because there's no reason to believe that the footage we've seen is representative of anywhere near the top end of the aircraft's performance.
If anything, it would be in the PLAAF's interest to not reveal how agile it is, whether it's at an airshow, parade or flight testing over a city where footage can be easily taken.
It's the PLA we're talking about here -- they rarely if ever show off or reeval the true capabilities of their systems until quite late.
It actually is in the PLAAF's interest to show how agile it is, if it's truly agile, because then the J-20 obtains a greater deterrent function as a "super-fighter", and China's current stance is deterrence, not engagement. Remember Sun Zi, "when strong, appear weak, when weak, appear strong".
There's also the fact that depending on the airframes capability, you can show truly stunning maneuvers without overextending your hand; i.e, you can demonstrate 24 deg / sec sustained turn rate when you actually have 28 deg / sec STR capability.
There's also the fact that depending on the airframes capability, you can show truly stunning maneuvers without overextending your hand; i.e, you can demonstrate 24 deg / sec sustained turn rate when you actually have 28 deg / sec STR capability.
Err no.
There is deterrence and then there is deterrence.
When you completely out match everyone else, it may make sense to show off or refer to as many of your true capabilities as practically possible to deter adversaries who are much weaker.
But if you are catching up to a more powerful adversary who is still objectively more capable and with the resources and expertise to potentially continue keeping ahead of you, it does not make sense to show off your true capabilities because chances are they are only qualitatively competitive with your adversary at best and without quantitative parity (let alone advantage), all while the adversary can try to check your moves by investing in the next generation of weapons to counter yours.
In other words, in China's position vis a vis its potential adversary, it makes no sense to show off the true capabilities of their new weapons systems. Maybe in a few decades if or when Chinese military capabilities completely outmatch everyone else by a couple of generations, then it would make sense. But until then, no, I don't think your argument makes sense.
I agree with you to an extent. That is why they deliberately do not show or reveal the true capabilities of their new weapons systems whether it's fighter aircraft or missile systems or new ships.
That said, the specific quote doesn't make sense at all levels (political, strategic, vs tactical or developmental or for specific weapons systems vs entire national capabilities)
But why would it be in the interests of the PLA to show "truly stunning maneuvers"??
For example, when have we ever seen PLAAF fighters like Flankers do the kind of maneuvers we've seen US or Russian fighters do at airshows. When's the last time you saw a J-11B or even a J-11A/Su-27SK do a Cobra?
and in future do you mind quoting my posts when you reply to me? That way I can receive a notification.
It's what HE would do so he assumes everyone would. It's never crossed his mind that perhaps not everyone is as vain as he is and showboating isn't at the top of their priorities.
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