Most Chinese subs rely primarily on flank and towed arrays like their surface ships. The 09V may get a large spherical bow sonar in the same vein as the 055 but something gives me the impression the PLAN doesn't prioritise bow sonars as much as sonar arrays.
09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter SinoSoldier
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Most Chinese subs rely primarily on flank and towed arrays like their surface ships. The 09V may get a large spherical bow sonar in the same vein as the 055 but something gives me the impression the PLAN doesn't prioritise bow sonars as much as sonar arrays.
Can you explain why PLAN doesn't priorities bow sonars as much as sonar arrays?
Upper front for the torpedo tubes. The bottom front is a sonar array which can be spherical, barrel, doughnut, torus, lifesaver, or wheel shaped, like a large truck tire. This goes back to standard Soviet submarine design practice.
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I believe they do, just that their approach to design is heavily influenced by submarines of the Soviet Union. That influence may fade though once we go past this current generation.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Western subs have their torpedo tubes on the bottom, with sonar up top, Chinese/Russian subs have their sonars up top and torpedo tubes on the bottom.
Since subs will normally be below their prey, having the sonar up top could potentially give better reception compared to being on the lower half of the nose.
OTOH, having tubes at the top allows reloading directly through the tubs at peer, as well as through the dedicated loading ramp (which could potentially be omitted in the sub design, saving space).
But with the way sound propagates in water, having direct line of sight to the source is not as big a deal as for optics or radar, so the difference in reception should be minimal at best.
Similarly, most (if not all) Chinese and Russian subs have the reloading ramp anyways.
So at this point, I think it’s more about preference and tradition rather than any special reason on the choise or where to mount the sonar dome.
Since subs will normally be below their prey, having the sonar up top could potentially give better reception compared to being on the lower half of the nose.
OTOH, having tubes at the top allows reloading directly through the tubs at peer, as well as through the dedicated loading ramp (which could potentially be omitted in the sub design, saving space).
But with the way sound propagates in water, having direct line of sight to the source is not as big a deal as for optics or radar, so the difference in reception should be minimal at best.
Similarly, most (if not all) Chinese and Russian subs have the reloading ramp anyways.
So at this point, I think it’s more about preference and tradition rather than any special reason on the choise or where to mount the sonar dome.
D
Deleted member 13312
Guest
Cultural/doctrinal differences likely accounts for little in the case of sonar emplacement. All spherical sonars are found on the latest generations of nuclear attack subs, even the Russians have experimented in some form in the Yasen. And they would have gotten more if their economy had permitted for such.
This is more of a question of technological maturity/competence.
The question still remains as to why such designs has yet to find their way onto diesel attack subs though a possible explanation would be that diesel subs cannot general enough power to fully operated these sonars.
For the PLAN to ditter and be coy about their submarine progression should not come as a surprise, it is one of their most closely guarded secret and ace card after all. So the lack of photos of a type 93 with slanted torpedo tubes should not be taken as proof of a lack of PLAN interest in the matter.
This is more of a question of technological maturity/competence.
The question still remains as to why such designs has yet to find their way onto diesel attack subs though a possible explanation would be that diesel subs cannot general enough power to fully operated these sonars.
For the PLAN to ditter and be coy about their submarine progression should not come as a surprise, it is one of their most closely guarded secret and ace card after all. So the lack of photos of a type 93 with slanted torpedo tubes should not be taken as proof of a lack of PLAN interest in the matter.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
According to Henri K there are 5 yes 5 different type of Type 9III sub confirming one of the member guess who said that the PLA use type 9III to experiment and validate increasingly more sophisticated sub Henrik K also guess that new missile has been tested Her is the article
The SNA Type 09III tests a new naval cruise missile?
BY
00Since the endowment of the first Type 09III ¹ by the Chinese navy to 23 December 2006, which goes back more than ten years ago, few elements are made public on this new class of Chinese attack nuclear submarine. But the state media seems to have made an exception in recent days and broadcast several videos about a first trial campaign carried out among other things by one of these buildings, and the recent visit of Chinese President XI to a base Chinese Navy where are stationed several of these nuclear submarines.
We then learn that a series of shots, involving at least one Type 052D first-class destroyer and "the leading ship of a new class of submarine", was recently conducted by an experimental test center. the Chinese Navy in an area "between the Yellow Sea and Bohai Bay".
Although no details were provided, it is still known that several "new types of missiles" have been fired against targets at sea and also "on the island". So we are virtually certain that this concerns not only anti-ship missiles but also naval cruise missiles, except that we do not know which ones were deployed on which types of platforms.
Needless to say, there are questions about exactly where and when these shots were fired, as well as the buildings and missile models deployed in this experimental military campaign.
And if our follow-up is accurate, it is thought that these test shots took place exactly on May 12, between 07:00 and 16:00 local time, in an area in Bohai Bay already signaled by an alert from the Maritime Security Administration. local.
The analysis of this zone, which is nearly 24,000 km², twice the size of the Ile de France, shows that it includes not only the observation and monitoring stations of a known experimental test center. of the Chinese Navy, located on the west coast of the Liaodong Peninsula, but also at least one island that has been used as a long-range military field.
These elements are therefore consistent with the information disclosed in the official communiqués cited above.
Une grande partie de la baie de Bohai sera fermée le 12 Mai, entre 07h00 et 16h00 heure locale, pour cause de "mission militaire". La zone interdite d'accès fait environ 200 x 150 km.
The maritime zone prohibited from access on May 12, 2018 in the Bohai Sea (Image: East Pendulum)
Monitoring stations of the Chinese Navy Experimental Test Center (Image: East Pendulum)
One of the islands south-east of the Forbidden Area is served as a military firing range (Image: East Pendulum)
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
(cont)
Monitoring facilities at the Liaodong Peninsula Experimental Test Center (Images: CCTV)
As for the question about the submarine (s) that participated in the operation, the videos of the Chinese national channel CCTV do indeed show images of two nuclear attack submarines supposed Class 09III class, both revealed for the first time to the general public and have a somewhat different physical appearance.
It can be deduced that at least one of them fired missiles, but it is not known whether it was an anti-ship missile against targets at sea, or a naval cruise missile for targets. on the ground.
In the first case it seems obvious that it is the YJ-18, , or the YJ-18B anti-ship vertical launch. But if it is a naval cruise missile then the submarine Type 09III in question can only be in reality the Type 09IIIB, of which we know the existence of the program but we do not know if class buildings have already been admitted to active duty.
For the moment no tangible element allows us to know in which case we really are, the question is therefore unfortunately complete.
Monitoring facilities at the Liaodong Peninsula Experimental Test Center (Images: CCTV)
As for the question about the submarine (s) that participated in the operation, the videos of the Chinese national channel CCTV do indeed show images of two nuclear attack submarines supposed Class 09III class, both revealed for the first time to the general public and have a somewhat different physical appearance.
It can be deduced that at least one of them fired missiles, but it is not known whether it was an anti-ship missile against targets at sea, or a naval cruise missile for targets. on the ground.
In the first case it seems obvious that it is the YJ-18, , or the YJ-18B anti-ship vertical launch. But if it is a naval cruise missile then the submarine Type 09III in question can only be in reality the Type 09IIIB, of which we know the existence of the program but we do not know if class buildings have already been admitted to active duty.
For the moment no tangible element allows us to know in which case we really are, the question is therefore unfortunately complete.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
(cont)
The two different Type 09III (Images: CCTV)
Apart from this test campaign, which unveiled for the first time what appear to be two new variants of the Type 09III submarine, we also learn that Chinese President Xi Jin Ping also visited the Qingdao Naval Base. to visit facilities related to the submarine forces of the Northern Fleet.
In the reports broadcast by both the CCTV channel but also the military chains of the Chinese army, we can see that XI boarded a nuclear attack submarine whose official designation was not specified, but which seems very likely that it is also another variant of Type 09III, because it is different from the two others appeared in Bay of Bohai during the tests.
XI also greeted the crew of a second submarine of the same class stationed facing the first one he had visited, which is to say that at least two copies of this Type 09III variant were built and operational to date.
Other interesting information could be drawn from these reports - For example, we now know that these two Type 09III are named respectively " Long March 15 " (SSN 418) and " Long March 16 " (SSN 419), and knowing that the very first Chinese nuclear submarine was called " Long March 1 ", that is to say that the Chinese navy now has at least 10 nuclear submarines second generation or more ².
The two different Type 09III (Images: CCTV)
Apart from this test campaign, which unveiled for the first time what appear to be two new variants of the Type 09III submarine, we also learn that Chinese President Xi Jin Ping also visited the Qingdao Naval Base. to visit facilities related to the submarine forces of the Northern Fleet.
In the reports broadcast by both the CCTV channel but also the military chains of the Chinese army, we can see that XI boarded a nuclear attack submarine whose official designation was not specified, but which seems very likely that it is also another variant of Type 09III, because it is different from the two others appeared in Bay of Bohai during the tests.
XI also greeted the crew of a second submarine of the same class stationed facing the first one he had visited, which is to say that at least two copies of this Type 09III variant were built and operational to date.
Other interesting information could be drawn from these reports - For example, we now know that these two Type 09III are named respectively " Long March 15 " (SSN 418) and " Long March 16 " (SSN 419), and knowing that the very first Chinese nuclear submarine was called " Long March 1 ", that is to say that the Chinese navy now has at least 10 nuclear submarines second generation or more ².
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Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
(cont)
The images from XI's visit to the 09III Armaments Bay also show that the vessel is equipped with at least two types of ammunition, the Yu-10 fiber-optic heavy-wire torpedo, and the anti-ship missile. YJ-18.
Note that these two Type 09III have already participated in the naval parade of April 12, 2018 in the South China Sea, . The two vessels followed two Type 09IV nuclear missile submarines, and the group led an armada of 76 warships, including the Liaoning aircraft carrier , to parade under Chinese President Xi's eyes.
The Yu-10 torpedoes, in black, and the YJ-18 anti-ship missile in blue (Image: CCTV)
A SNLE Type 09IV (foreground) and a SNA Type 09III, during the naval parade of April 12, 2018.
If many questions remain unanswered today of these latest revelations around the Type 09III - since strategic submarine forces remain by far the best kept secrets, like everywhere in the world - we can at least notice that China continues to progress by building a small series of nuclear submarines, each with significant improvements over previous ones.
Up to now, therefore, no fewer than five different "versions" of Type 09III have been identified, and it is clearly on the eve of the construction of a new generation of SNAs and Chinese SSBNs known as Type 09V and Type 09VI. .
Up to now, therefore, no fewer than five different "versions" of Type 09III have been identified, and it is clearly on the eve of the construction of a new generation of SNAs and Chinese SSBNs known as Type 09V and Type 09VI. .
The five different versions of Type 09III known so far (Image: East Pendulum)
To be continued.
Henri K.
¹ The official designation of Chinese nuclear submarines is "Type 09" + Roman numerals, so there is no "Type 091" but Type 09I, as for Type 09II, Type 09III, Type 09IV and so of after. Note that the "Shang class" to describe the type 09III exists only in NATO codes and represents in any case the official name of this class of ships.
² The first generation of Chinese nuclear submarines is composed of five SNA Type 09I and one SNLE Type 09II. At least three of these six buildings are retired from active service today.
The images from XI's visit to the 09III Armaments Bay also show that the vessel is equipped with at least two types of ammunition, the Yu-10 fiber-optic heavy-wire torpedo, and the anti-ship missile. YJ-18.
Note that these two Type 09III have already participated in the naval parade of April 12, 2018 in the South China Sea, . The two vessels followed two Type 09IV nuclear missile submarines, and the group led an armada of 76 warships, including the Liaoning aircraft carrier , to parade under Chinese President Xi's eyes.
The Yu-10 torpedoes, in black, and the YJ-18 anti-ship missile in blue (Image: CCTV)
A SNLE Type 09IV (foreground) and a SNA Type 09III, during the naval parade of April 12, 2018.
If many questions remain unanswered today of these latest revelations around the Type 09III - since strategic submarine forces remain by far the best kept secrets, like everywhere in the world - we can at least notice that China continues to progress by building a small series of nuclear submarines, each with significant improvements over previous ones.
Up to now, therefore, no fewer than five different "versions" of Type 09III have been identified, and it is clearly on the eve of the construction of a new generation of SNAs and Chinese SSBNs known as Type 09V and Type 09VI. .
Up to now, therefore, no fewer than five different "versions" of Type 09III have been identified, and it is clearly on the eve of the construction of a new generation of SNAs and Chinese SSBNs known as Type 09V and Type 09VI. .
The five different versions of Type 09III known so far (Image: East Pendulum)
To be continued.
Henri K.
¹ The official designation of Chinese nuclear submarines is "Type 09" + Roman numerals, so there is no "Type 091" but Type 09I, as for Type 09II, Type 09III, Type 09IV and so of after. Note that the "Shang class" to describe the type 09III exists only in NATO codes and represents in any case the official name of this class of ships.
² The first generation of Chinese nuclear submarines is composed of five SNA Type 09I and one SNLE Type 09II. At least three of these six buildings are retired from active service today.