PLA Small arms
- Thread starter Vanguard1688
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I don't think you can embed from Twitter into this forum. Photos are another story.
They have obveously done some major changes. the previous itteration looked more like a MP5.
It still has some MP5 lines and I am guessing Charging handel but the Irons are more like the UMP
Hand guard and pistol grip make me think Beretta's PMX crossed with B&T's APC
Ths Stock makes me think of the Sig MCX carbine And the mag well the XM8
This is a dedicated SMG for Police Swat and primary weapon carry not a concealed SMG. based on what we see I think it to be a near 1 to 1 for a UMP which would be about the same size as a M4 Carbine. with the stock folded it would be smaller and handier but this is meant for use in a obvious means. the guy who carries this is in full tac gear. SMG's like this have started falling from favor in the west as realistically the only advantage vs a Carbine like the G36C or M4A1 is it shares ammo with your sidearm and even that is questionable.
They have obveously done some major changes. the previous itteration looked more like a MP5.
It still has some MP5 lines and I am guessing Charging handel but the Irons are more like the UMP
Hand guard and pistol grip make me think Beretta's PMX crossed with B&T's APC
Ths Stock makes me think of the Sig MCX carbine And the mag well the XM8
This is a dedicated SMG for Police Swat and primary weapon carry not a concealed SMG. based on what we see I think it to be a near 1 to 1 for a UMP which would be about the same size as a M4 Carbine. with the stock folded it would be smaller and handier but this is meant for use in a obvious means. the guy who carries this is in full tac gear. SMG's like this have started falling from favor in the west as realistically the only advantage vs a Carbine like the G36C or M4A1 is it shares ammo with your sidearm and even that is questionable.
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I don't think you can embed from Twitter into this forum. Photos are another story.
They have obveously done some major changes. the previous itteration looked more like a MP5.
It still has some MP5 lines and I am guessing Charging handel but the Irons are more like the UMP
Hand guard and pistol grip make me think Beretta's PMX crossed with B&T's APC
Ths Stock makes me think of the Sig MCX carbine And the mag well the XM8
Isn’t this gun an iteration of type 79?
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
the two at the far end yes. but not the two center of shot.
I mean these are totally different systems. you might as well compare a QBZ95 to a STG40
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I don't think you can embed from Twitter into this forum. Photos are another story.
They have obveously done some major changes. the previous itteration looked more like a MP5.
It still has some MP5 lines and I am guessing Charging handel but the Irons are more like the UMP
Hand guard and pistol grip make me think Beretta's PMX crossed with B&T's APC
Ths Stock makes me think of the Sig MCX carbine And the mag well the XM8
This is a dedicated SMG for Police Swat and primary weapon carry not a concealed SMG. based on what we see I think it to be a near 1 to 1 for a UMP which would be about the same size as a M4 Carbine. with the stock folded it would be smaller and handier but this is meant for use in a obvious means. the guy who carries this is in full tac gear. SMG's like this have started falling from favor in the west as realistically the only advantage vs a Carbine like the G36C or M4A1 is it shares ammo with your sidearm and even that is questionable.
I wonder if the Western (read mostly US) police shift from 9mm SMGs to 5.56 carbines or full rifles might not have more to do with the cheap prices police departments could get military surplus compared to buying new on the market.
I am always dubious when I see police in the UK patrol around with military rifles/carbines in 5.56. The potential for through-and-through collateral damage on bystanders is far greater with a 556 compared to 9mm. The stopping power is also questionable compared to the 9mm.
The primary advantage of 556 against 9mm is range, but that isn’t really all that important for police work in an urban environment.
Equation
Lieutenant General
If the police forces wants to stick to the 9mm caliber with a more rapid firing weapon, than they could always used a wide variety of sub machine guns, such as the MP5 and Mac10.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
there are a number of reasons first is often training. Many police officers in the US have served in the US military as such they have a high degree of hands on with the AR15 series. But there are other carbines used by some Police departments in the US. Second is as you pointed out. But not all get surplus carbines from the DOD the prices of carbines to SMG because of the market are about equal to beter favoring AR. But not just the carbines themselves but the accessory market. Take a MP5 magazine for example. The MP5 is normally the chosen SMG for law enforcement. The magazine costs about $80.00 commercial just for an empty magazine. With the exception of the KRISS SMG, most SMG use proprietary magazines where as 5.56mm carbines tend to use a standardized magazine that is commonly offered on the market with lots of makers building to or better then spec. The best on the market the Magpul Pmag between $15 and $20 commercial.
Logistics and Budget. If you are a smaller police department and need to stock replacement be magazines for your long guns a hundred $80.00 magazines is probably going to be a hard expence to justify.
okay this is going to take a few to deal with. First and foremost Police and law enforcement are not limited by treaty like military. Actually technically the convention only bars use of a weapon by a signetory. Some nations could by not being signetors use whatever they want. But that's an aside.
First, military counter terror units like SAS and Delta force who have designed aircraft hostage rescue operations, don't worry about 5.56x45 vs 9x19mm because they like law enforcement in general are allowed to use rounds other than the full metal jacket. Hollow points and frangable rounds are designed for be leathal but not barrier penitrating. They would do damage to a human or animal but not perce the skin of a Aluminum aircraft.
Infact a common complaint about 556 has been it not penitrating barriers like wood vs 7.62x39. Many police departments have been more worried about 9mm over penitrating.
One of the biggest reasons why for the US that the 9mm fell from favor of long guns was the north Hollywood shootout. Where in two terrorists/Bank robbers loaded to the teeth with illeagally modified weapons be and homemade body armor robbed a bank and set to turning part of Hollywood into a warzone.
In there rampage they used 7.62x54mm, 7.62x39mm,5.56x45mm and 9x19mm they chose and used ammo optimized to penitrate barriers and built armor resistance to the standard pistol rounds. The LAPD one of the arguably best equipped be police agencies in the US was forced to run to gun stores, borrow long rifles and ammo to match these guys.
After that point the writing was more or less on the wall. SMGs were invented in the first world war because troops needed a weapon as mobile as a pistol with the fire power of a Machine gun to sweep trenches in close Quarters.
The assault rifle carbines was the product of taking that lesson farther and creating a weapon as mobile as a SMG with the range of a rifle and the rate of fire as a machine gun. With personal body armor able to be made by two terrorists ( they may not have been AQ or Islamic but they wanted to cause terror) in there garage the SMG as a means to trying to stop a dedicated assailant intending to create mass casualtys was over.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Well, firstly, the armoured bad guys example you gave was an anomaly, not the norm. If we just look at the statistics by number of attacks and casualties caused world wide, you could just as easily (if not more so!) argue that cops need 50 cal anti material rifles to better deal with terrorist vehicle ramming attacks. 50 cal also defeats body armour.
You are trying to have your cake and eat it too by arguing cops can use non-FMJ rounds, on the one hand and yet on the other also cite the (very arguably) better anti armour properties of 556 against 9mm when dealing with the as yet, extremely rare, body armoured shooter.
If the cops are loading hollow points, those rounds are not going to be any better against body armour, even just basic Kevlar, compared to 9mm.
Conversly, loading AP rounds to deal with body armour makes over penetration even more likely to the point of inevitable.
When it comes to ammo, the same market forces you mentioned on magazines also applies.
For 556, hollow point ammo is many times more expensive than FMJ because very few buyers want 556 hollow points.
Magazines are semi fixed costs in that you only need to buy more very rarely, but ammo is very much a variable cost, and police departments go through huge quantities very regularly from training alone. So even a small price difference will add up quickly.
Those UK cops I mentioned earlier were carrying see through mags, and they were loaded with FMJ, and I would bet most US police departments only stock FMJ on cost grounds for their 556 also.
For 9mm, hollow points are far more common, so the price difference is much smaller.
On your second point, the better armour penetration potential of 556 against 9mm really is only academic, because any bog standard ballistic plate people can buy off the internet for a hundred dollars are rated to easily stop 556.
Indeed, in the last instance where an attacker wore body armour in Baton Rouge, the police were armed with 556 but that didn’t seem to help them much in taking him down with firearms did it?
Against anything other than pure Kevlar vests, 556 has no practical advantage against 9mm when it comes to armoured assailants.
If a terrorist or criminal is going to the trouble to armour up, they are no going to stop at Kevlar only.
In America, it’s a different world because of the military grade weapons and armour that civilians could buy without restrictions or questions in most places. So the shift in police going for military grade weapons is more justifiable and understandable, though still regrettable. But for the rest of the world, where there is no such issue, using military rifles and ammo for everyday police action is questionable at best, and irresponsibly dangerous at worst in by book.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Wolf I can give you most of this but...
In a place where the citizenry lack any major firearms avalibility like the PRC there and then Pistols are often the heavy hitter and SMG's are the over achiever. Most of the Third world though have all three factions the two government arms and citizenry as well as possible threats packing the same weapons.
In a vast portion of the third world. The weapons of choice for all three civilian, military and law enforcement are the same AK. It's when you move to the developed world that the SMG and pistol becomes more prevalent and where you start getting higher and tighter restrictions on gun ownership and regulation.
In a place where the citizenry lack any major firearms avalibility like the PRC there and then Pistols are often the heavy hitter and SMG's are the over achiever. Most of the Third world though have all three factions the two government arms and citizenry as well as possible threats packing the same weapons.
Equation
Lieutenant General
Doesn't your favorite Asian nation Japan has a lack of firearms available to the citizens?
That's why they are the 3rd world status.