PLA Navy news, pics and videos

[Jeff Head]

Today at 11:42 AM
now Reuters:
China accuses U.S. warship of violating its sovereignty

Updated 35 minutes ago

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The main issue is that the US and other nations do not recognize a 12-mile limit applying to constructs...meaning man0-made improvements to shoals and reefs that were never islands to begin with.

In those cases, the limit has always been much lesss, like 1-3 miles or something.

The US is standing by that definition for these islands. The place in question is called Huangyan Island by the Chinese, but is Scarborough Shoal, which the Chinese used very massive and impressive land reclamation to improve, s they did several other islands in the area.

So...if the UK to Gibralter and utilized reclamation to extend it far enough across the strait there, could they effectively block off the Mediteranean?

The answer to that is clear and that is the position the US is taking towards these improvments.

Like I have said many times...if both sides do not do anything foolish...and sailing within five miles instead of 12 is not foolish IMHO, it is based on lang stnding and understoood international law...then netoher side is going to be able to change anything.

The Chinese effectively have strong bases in the south China s=Sea that are mutually supportive and now have airfields, sensors, wharfes, etc. and are not going to be moved off of those bases.

The US has a strong Navy with FON long standing international understanding and short of something foolish (like shooting at them), there i no cause for alarm because the ship sailing there does not change a thing.

China is wanting the world to change the recognition of those islands from constructs and improvements to being part of the continntal land mass that accords a 12 mile limit.

Perhaps in time, when 20 years have passed by and it is clear that what they have done is permanenet as far as the geology is concerned...things will change and be redefined.

That would be the best course to take IMHO. Be patient and let time cure the ill.

 

[Jura The idiot]

Today at 5:35 PM

Today at 11:42 AM
now Reuters:
China accuses U.S. warship of violating its sovereignty

Updated 35 minutes ago

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now I read
Defense ministry warns U.S. against "causing trouble out of nothing"
Xinhua| 2018-01-20 20:26:50

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China's Ministry of National Defense has told the

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not to "cause trouble out of nothing," and to respect the sovereignty of China.

Wu Qian, spokesperson for the ministry, made the remarks Saturday in response to the actions of a U.S. warship Wednesday.

According to Wu, on Jan. 17, the USS Hopper, a guided missile destroyer, arbitrarily entered waters surrounding

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in the

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, before Chinese missile destroyer Huangshan immediately conducted an identification and warning process to drive it away.

Under joint efforts by China and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (

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), the situation around the South China Sea is becoming more and more stable and positive, Wu said.

The United States has sent vessels to illegally enter the waters around China's islands and reefs in the South China Sea on multiple occasions, endangering the safety of vessels and personnel from both sides, the spokesperson continued.

It has also threatened China's sovereignty and security, harmed the regional peace and stability, and gone against the stable development of relations between the two countries and their militaries, he stated.

"We hope that the United States will respect China's sovereignty, respect the efforts made by the countries within the region, and not cause trouble out of nothing or make waves," Wu said.

The Chinese military will continue to fulfill its defensive duties, intensify its patrols in the air and at sea, in order to firmly safeguard the sovereignty and security of the country, as well as the regional peace and stability, he added.

 

[kurutoga]

For a race to prove who is respecting UNCLOS, I am not sure if China will come out as winner, but US certainly won't, before congress first rectify it. So, instead of fighting the war of words, maybe it is more practical to think what the counter measure from China would be. Plenty of small isles, atolls, ... are reinforced by concrete in west Pacific. The next step might be Chinese Navy challenge Japan's claims? In the end it is a war of attrition. Who has more resources to throw at the problem will be the eventual winner.

 

[plawolf]

The main issue is that the US and other nations do not recognize a 12-mile limit applying to constructs...meaning man0-made improvements to shoals and reefs that were never islands to begin with.

In those cases, the limit has always been much lesss, like 1-3 miles or something.

The US is standing by that definition for these islands. The place in question is called Huangyan Island by the Chinese, but is Scarborough Shoal, which the Chinese used very massive and impressive land reclamation to improve, s they did several other islands in the area.

So...if the UK to Gibralter and utilized reclamation to extend it far enough across the strait there, could they effectively block off the Mediteranean?

The answer to that is clear and that is the position the US is taking towards these improvments.

Like I have said many times...if both sides do not do anything foolish...and sailing within five miles instead of 12 is not foolish IMHO, it is based on lang stnding and understoood international law...then netoher side is going to be able to change anything.

The Chinese effectively have strong bases in the south China s=Sea that are mutually supportive and now have airfields, sensors, wharfes, etc. and are not going to be moved off of those bases.

The US has a strong Navy with FON long standing international understanding and short of something foolish (like shooting at them), there i no cause for alarm because the ship sailing there does not change a thing.

China is wanting the world to change the recognition of those islands from constructs and improvements to being part of the continntal land mass that accords a 12 mile limit.

Perhaps in time, when 20 years have passed by and it is clear that what they have done is permanenet as far as the geology is concerned...things will change and be redefined.

That would be the best course to take IMHO. Be patient and let time cure the ill.

Huangyan/Scarborough Shoal has had zero reclaimation work done.

Chinese objections to US FONOPS is based on Chinese ( and many other nations’) interpretation of UNCLOS, which allows ‘innocent passage’ and sees US FONOPS as more than innocent passage.

Chinese built up islands in the SCS is nothing like Gibralter which sits at a geographical choke point.

There is literally an entire Oceans USN ships could use to safely traverse the region, and they absolutely HAVE to do it within 12nm of Chinese islands? Which, contrary to popular western media reporting, does NOT sit in busy shipping lanes (for good reason as commercial shipping doesn’t want to go so near to shallow water). If a skipper was stupid enough to try to sail within a mile or two of those islands pre-reclaimation, odds are he would have grounded his ship.

So Chinese land reclaimation has literally had no impact on commercial trade. Ships still sail exactly the same routes as they did before, and few if any of those commercial ships even come close enough to see those new islands.

The US is also hardly in a position to leture China on expansive claims when one looks at how much of the Pacific the US has carved up for itself.

The SCS is only an issue because the US wanted to make it into a choke hold to threaten China’s sea lines of communication with regional proxies, which it covertly encouraged to go on a massive land grabbing frenzy. That is why China built up its own island holdings.

USN FONOPS are as pointless as they are ineffectual. Hell, they are downright counterproductive from an American POV as they are allowing China to stealthily upscale its claims.

Every time a USN ship comes near a Chinese island, the Chinese tell the Americans they are violating Chinese waters. The story is thus China protesting American FON, instead of China claiming 12nm around the islands as its territorial waters.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Like I said before... fish farms. Cages, cables, and chains going out twelve miles in all directions and there's your prop fowlers galore. Fish farming isn't military.

 

[antiterror13]

The main issue is that the US and other nations do not recognize a 12-mile limit applying to constructs...meaning man0-made improvements to shoals and reefs that were never islands to begin with.

In those cases, the limit has always been much lesss, like 1-3 miles or something.

The US is standing by that definition for these islands. The place in question is called Huangyan Island by the Chinese, but is Scarborough Shoal, which the Chinese used very massive and impressive land reclamation to improve, s they did several other islands in the area.

So...if the UK to Gibralter and utilized reclamation to extend it far enough across the strait there, could they effectively block off the Mediteranean?

The answer to that is clear and that is the position the US is taking towards these improvments.

Like I have said many times...if both sides do not do anything foolish...and sailing within five miles instead of 12 is not foolish IMHO, it is based on lang stnding and understoood international law...then netoher side is going to be able to change anything.

The Chinese effectively have strong bases in the south China s=Sea that are mutually supportive and now have airfields, sensors, wharfes, etc. and are not going to be moved off of those bases.

The US has a strong Navy with FON long standing international understanding and short of something foolish (like shooting at them), there i no cause for alarm because the ship sailing there does not change a thing.

China is wanting the world to change the recognition of those islands from constructs and improvements to being part of the continntal land mass that accords a 12 mile limit.

Perhaps in time, when 20 years have passed by and it is clear that what they have done is permanenet as far as the geology is concerned...things will change and be redefined.

That would be the best course to take IMHO. Be patient and let time cure the ill.

I am not aware that China has done some massive land reclamation on Huangyan Island (Scarborough) .. when did it start ?

 

[kurutoga]

I am not aware that China has done some massive land reclamation on Huangyan Island (Scarborough) .. when did it start ?

China refrained from doing so, possibly to make the Philippines feel less threatened. OTOH the neighboring area is open to fishermen from both countries, as a gesture the two countries can share what's considered EEZ region.

South China Sea will be a problem when North Korea situation is tuned down a notch. In that regard we can't hide or avoid it. The two countries involved had to figure out how to handle it, what to do, and military conflict is not entirely impossible.

Even with Jeff's endorsement, this topic is out of the scope of this forum IMO.

 

[antiterror13]

China refrained from doing so, possibly to make the Philippines feel less threatened. OTOH the neighboring area is open to fishermen from both countries, as a gesture the two countries can share what's considered EEZ region.

South China Sea will be a problem when North Korea situation is tuned down a notch. In that regard we can't hide or avoid it. The two countries involved had to figure out how to handle it, what to do, and military conflict is not entirely impossible.

Exactly that what I know ... but perhaps @Jeff Head knew something that I (and you) didn't know ?

 

[Iron Man]

It is entirely possible China will commence reclamation of Scarborough Shoal after Duterte leaves office, or perhaps even before. Reclamation of this shoal is essential enough to China's military presence in the SCS that reclamation at some point in the future should be considered a foregone conclusion.

 

[latenlazy]

It is entirely possible China will commence reclamation of Scarborough Shoal after Duterte leaves office, or perhaps even before. Reclamation of this shoal is essential enough to China's military presence in the SCS that reclamation at some point in the future should be considered a foregone conclusion.

Unless China feels confident enough that it can swing nearby countries into their orbit.