Chinese purchase of Su-35

[Deino]

Gyus ... I still non't understand why some are discussing this issue as if it never happened.

Just take it this way at least from what I learned, there are two sides:

1. the PLAAF:
- to for us unknown reasons - and MUST have several - they simply do not want to talk about this, neither on the low numbers, their operational use, the WHY or anything. We can be annoyed but it is that way, period.
- the PLAAF has issued several much more stricter security regularities, so that we don't get much information on the Su-35 ... again we can complain but this does not change anything, period.

2. Russia:
- from what I've learned also in Russia several guys that were watching military and industry companies reports and leak them to the public were invited for 'tea talks' ... similar to several Chinese ones.
- Also following numerous leaks in yearly reports several companies were forced to watch them more closely by the FSB.
- and finally many companies changed their ownership that now no longer allows them to publish yearly reports for shareholders publicly especially spiced up with such secret details.

Consequently there is no reason to believe - or hope - this deal never happened and question this fact only since we don't understand the reasons behind.

Deino

 

[by78]

If the shortfall is temporary then it does. 24 covers about a year's worth of production. They might have needed fewer but couldn't negotiate the number down. No one's yet sure what's happening with the J-11D.

I've also heard persistent rumors that China insisted on fewer than 24. If they are true, I wonder if China only wanted Su-35 for intelligence-gathering and OPFOR purposes (for potential conflicts against both Russia and India). After all, there is no better way to gauge a potential opponent's hardware capabilities than to actually get a hold of a few examples.

 

[latenlazy]

I've also heard persistent rumors that China insisted on fewer than 24. If they are true, I wonder if China only wanted Su-35 for intelligence-gathering and OPFOR purposes (for potential conflicts against both Russia and India). After all, there is no better way to gauge a potential opponent's hardware capabilities than to actually get a hold of a few examples.

Or for aggressor squadrons to learn strategies against opponents with TVC. There are a number of different possible reasons for it. I personally think that the production shortfall one might be the most compelling, given the conspicuous timing of the deal finalization and deliveries and the halting of the J-11's production. That's just my opinion though. Who knows what other kinds of informal agreements and sweeteners they horse traded in the process of making this deal happen though.

 

[plawolf]

From an operational stand point, the Su35 deal doesn’t make much sense. There are a lot of things the PLAAF could do with the Su35s, ranging from covering production shortfall; to aggressors; to train J20 pilots for TVC before a domestic TVC engine becomes available on the J20; to allowing the PLAAF to reciprocate the aggressive radar locking antics of the Japanese without risking allowing them to capture potentially critical signals data etc. However, none of those reasons, by themselves or in cumulation, really justifies the costs in purchase, logistics and training adding such a small number of a new fighter type adds.

From a political prospective, it does make a lot more sense.

Russia is seriously hurting from western sanctions and India turning to western arms over Russian, and the Su57 is floundering.

The Su35 deal always made the most sense as a politically driven ‘solid’ that China is doing Russia to help tide them over this economic rough patch.

China has already poured vast sums into oil and gas contracts, short of just giving the Russians free money, there really isn’t a great deal other than the Su35 purchase China could do to help, and China appears to be drawing the line to just giving the Russians free money.

The PLAAF sure isn’t complaining if Beijing wants to make an out of budget purchase of new jets for them.

 

[Deino]

...
The PLAAF sure isn’t complaining if Beijing wants to make an out of budget purchase of new jets for them.

And also add the technical aspect:

So far neither any aircraft company nor the PLAAF has any experiences in developing, installing and fielding an operational TVC-engine into a given FCS. So here they not only get a matured operational system on a silver-tablet but also they get an insight into the latest Russian avionics.


Deino

 

[jobjed]

And also add the technical aspect:

So far neither any aircraft company nor the PLAAF has any experiences in developing, installing and fielding an operational TVC-engine into a given FCS. So here they not only get a matured operational system on a silver-tablet but also they get an insight into the latest Russian avionics.


Deino

Yes, the FCS is probably the most valuable part of the Su-35. SAC has never really mastered the art of FCS design to the same competency of CAC. It's very telling that CAC managed to design a brand new FCS for a brand new aircraft in the form of the J-10 and not a single one crashed due to FCS problems.

Meanwhile, SAC reverse-engineered the T-10K airframe and, yet, two J-15s have crashed due to FCS malfunctions, one of them resulting in the death of pilot Zhang Chao. SAC didn't even need to do everything from scratch, most of the solution was already there and they still managed to screw something up. After the J-10, CAC went and designed the FCS software for the JF-17 and J-20, of which the latter is an aerodynamic marvel while SAC has done nothing pioneering in the FCS department. They probably want to consult the Su-35's FCS parameters to help them with mastering FCS.

 

[plawolf]

And also add the technical aspect:

So far neither any aircraft company nor the PLAAF has any experiences in developing, installing and fielding an operational TVC-engine into a given FCS. So here they not only get a matured operational system on a silver-tablet but also they get an insight into the latest Russian avionics.


Deino

Unless the Russians agreed to transfer source code, would China be able to extract any useful information from the Su35 FBW software?

 

[jobjed]

Unless the Russians agreed to transfer source code, would China be able to extract any useful information from the Su35 FBW software?

They cracked the fire-control system on the Su-27s and 30s head to toe, and integrated them with Chinese ordnance. Flight-control system shouldn't be too difficult. It'll take time, though.

 

[SinoSoldier]

There are rumors that the J-11D have incorporated key technologies found aboard the Su-35, notably the TVC 117S.

 

[SinoSoldier]

Or for aggressor squadrons to learn strategies against opponents with TVC. There are a number of different possible reasons for it. I personally think that the production shortfall one might be the most compelling, given the conspicuous timing of the deal finalization and deliveries and the halting of the J-11's production. That's just my opinion though. Who knows what other kinds of informal agreements and sweeteners they horse traded in the process of making this deal happen though.

This is actually not a far-fetched idea. The paint scheme of the Su-35s, which does not match that of any PLAAF combat aircraft, is hihgly reminiscent of OPFOR Su-30MKKs.