Chinese, Koreans and Mongols vs. samurais

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Had Kubilai Khan's army invaded Japan from the North via Sakhalin & Hokkaido instead of by sea only, with the help of the native Ainus the samurais would have been most probably defeated! Any ideas how that hypotetical war might have proceeded?
300px-Sea_of_Japan_Map.png


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IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Had Kubilai Khan's army invaded Japan from the North via Sakhalin & Hokkaido instead of by sea only, with the help of the native Ainus the samurais would have been most probably defeated! Any ideas how that hypotetical war might have proceeded?
[qimg]http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/4/47/300px-Sea_of_Japan_Map.png[/qimg]

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Why would Kublai go all the way north when all the ship building infastructure was in Korea and Japan? Going north will compound logistics problems.

The Samurai were defeated because they were out match tactically. Then the divine wind interfered.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
There's no need to go the northern route, since Korea was much closer, and easier on the logistics.

There were many factors contributing to Mongolian's loss. Being a land-based military, they had little experience with ocean vessels, and constructed a fleet of Chinese riverboats. The Koreans were quite horrified and told them that they should use ocean-going ships with curved keel, but the Mongols simply ddin't understand or didn't care. So when the typhoon came, *poof*.

The Japanese got smart after the first invasion, and built strong fortifications along potential landing points. These fortitications allowed the numerically and technologically inferior Japanese to defend against a larger and stronger invasion force, until the typhoon came and blew the Mongol fleet away.

Also, the Mongols had to go through Korea to reach Japan, and they took way too long to conquer Korea. Their first 6 major campaigns lasted almsot 30 years (1231-1259), and the final resistance didn't end until the Sambyeolcho rebellion was put down around 1271-1273.

This means that the invasion of Japan was much-delayed, and the Japanese had plenty of warning to fortify Kyushu. Had the Mongols been able to invade earlier, the first Battle of Hakata Bay would've prolly turned into a complete Japanese rout, making the second invasion unncessary.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Why would Kublai go all the way north when all the ship building infastructure was in Korea and Japan? Going north will compound logistics problems.
The Samurai were defeated because they were out match tactically. Then the divine wind interfered.

The area opposite Sakhalin was under Mongol control, and they could have supplied the army easily by the Amur river & across the strait; and with the Ainus support (who were at war with the Japanese for centuries) there could be littlle need for logistics. Actually, they could come both from the North via Hokkaido and from the Korean peninsula. I'm sure that some samurai clans would have switched sides once they realized how powerful the Mongols are!
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
The Samurai were silly. They went forward to the middle of the battlefield to challenge the Mongol leaders for a contest of honor, announcing their proud ancestry at the same time.

The Mongols laughed and shot them with arrows.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Had they used Sakhalin & Hokkaido as launching pads there would 've been no need for so many ships of the wrong kind!
...many scholars now believe that the destruction of the Mongol fleet was greatly facilitated by the hastily acquired flat-bottomed Chinese riverboats that comprised much of the invasion force. Such ships were not designed to deal with the high seas, let alone a massive typhoon. Had Kublai used ocean going ships, which have a curved keel to prevent capsizing, his navy may have largely survived the storm.
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Mongol_Empire_map.gif

The Koreans proved troublesome allies in the invasion of Japan, and in my opinion the Ainus would have been far better choice as guides and auxiliaries.
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The samurais were defeated by the Chinese in Korea later, during Imjin War of 1592-1598

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and Japanese pirates (who were armed similarly as samurais) by the Shaolin monks armed with staffs on China's coast.
After an imperial call, Shaolin monks led by Yue Kong and Da ZaoHua engaged the Japanese pirates in the area around present-day Shanghai. Records say that these monks soldiers fought bravely, wielding iron staffs. In one encounter, they relieved the seige on Shanghai. Later, however, they were all killed by Japanese pirates who lured them into an ambush.
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In the year 1522 AD, 40 monks volunteered and stopped Japanese pirates from invading the coastline.
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So, in my opinion, if the later samurais with their refined weapons & tactics lost battles in Korea and China, their ancestors would have been defeated in Japan itself had the Mongols and their allies invaded from more than one direction.
 
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