Next generation Japanese destroyers, what it means for PLAN

tphuang

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I thought I'd make a comment on the stealth technology and such.

I remember reading a couple of days back on a Chinese forum from their resident expert on pla. He is a RAM/stealth expert for military applications. He basically said that even the company that lost out in the Chinese RAM competition has RAM technology that is more advanced than what was on F-117. The question is how would he know the performance of the F-117 RAM, but I can't answer that.
 

Schumacher

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Yeah, I think you are reading too much into it. But cost is a factor why the US seeks to import from abroad some of this stuff. Some of them are higher performance indeed. But nevertheless, the US still has it's own domestic electronics tech. US weapons would still be manufactured with or without foreign electronics. I'm not sure if you understand that.

Of course, the weapons would still have been manufactured but of lower quality I'm sure, otherwise why import the tech in the first place if it did not help to improve your own system. Amazing isn't it I actually need to point this out, I thought it was quite obvious.

The same cannot be said about the USA/Japanese relationship in the context of US military development. China is simply not evolving anything like the USA which is pretty much totally self-sufficient in fielding newer military technologies, and in fact pushing the limits. The comparison is totally absurd.

Absurd ? Not really, just difference in the degree of interdependence.
Electronics is one of the main reasons if not the main one systems like F-22 & F-15 are ahead of others and we know electronics is the main area in which Japan helped the US.
 

Schumacher

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I thought I'd make a comment on the stealth technology and such.

I remember reading a couple of days back on a Chinese forum from their resident expert on pla. He is a RAM/stealth expert for military applications. He basically said that even the company that lost out in the Chinese RAM competition has RAM technology that is more advanced than what was on F-117. The question is how would he know the performance of the F-117 RAM, but I can't answer that.

Actually, the key argument is not abt stealth itself. It's how someone can so easily say PLA copies ALL its newer tech without much proof while have to be dragged kicking and screaming just to acknowledge the US got SOME help in SOME tech at SOME point in time from secondary sources.
Amazing isn't it ?
 

Sea Dog

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Of course, the weapons would still have been manufactured but of lower quality I'm sure, otherwise why import the tech in the first place if it did not help to improve your own system. Amazing isn't it I actually need to point this out, I thought it was quite obvious.

I highly doubt it. The U.S.'s electronics technology is among the finest in the world. Do you know how many University's and Research labs are dedicated to this work? As far as top of the line milkitary applications, there's nothing foreign built into any build of Tomahawk. :)

Absurd ? Not really, just difference in the degree of interdependence.
Electronics is one of the main reasons if not the main one systems like F-22 & F-15 are ahead of others and we know electronics is the main area in which Japan helped the US.

Yeah, But the USA is not dependant on Japan. That's the difference. ;) The Japanese aren;t really that dependant on the USA either, but they've chosen to build alot of their components to US standard. This is nothing like a Russia/china relationship. Russia doesn't show any interest in fielding anything military built by China. Whereas China is still fielding alot of stuff from Russia and just took delivery of more Kilos, Sovremenny's and Sukhoi jets.

tphuang said:
I thought I'd make a comment on the stealth technology and such.

I remember reading a couple of days back on a Chinese forum from their resident expert on pla. He is a RAM/stealth expert for military applications. He basically said that even the company that lost out in the Chinese RAM competition has RAM technology that is more advanced than what was on F-117. The question is how would he know the performance of the F-117 RAM, but I can't answer that.

As I posted a little earlier, I think China may have gotten a hold of info relating to the F-117 that was downed in the Balkans. And I'm sure they benefited from what they found. Just a gut feeling here. No proof or nothing.
 

Sea Dog

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Actually, the key argument is not abt stealth itself. It's how someone can so easily say PLA copies ALL its newer tech without much proof while have to be dragged kicking and screaming just to acknowledge the US got SOME help in SOME tech at SOME point in time from secondary sources.
Amazing isn't it ?

Yeah, but you still can't tell me what they got help on. ;)
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
I highly doubt it. The U.S.'s electronics technology is among the finest in the world. Do you know how many University's and Research labs are dedicated to this work? As far as top of the line milkitary applications, there's nothing foreign built into any build of Tomahawk. :)



Yeah, But the USA is not dependant on Japan. That's the difference. ;) The Japanese aren;t really that dependant on the USA either, but they've chosen to build alot of their components to US standard. This is nothing like a Russia/china relationship. Russia doesn't show any interest in fielding anything military built by China. Whereas China is still fielding alot of stuff from Russia and just took delivery of more Kilos, Sovremenny's and Sukhoi jets.

When 2 smilies appear in one post, I can see where ur going and why it's hard to make u understand.
U may not know foreign students form a big part of US universities' labs.
As I said many times, it's just the difference in the degree of dependence.

Yeah, but you still can't tell me what they got help on. ;)
That's ok. U did not produce any proof to say PLA copied some tech as well.
 
Absurd ? Not really, just difference in the degree of interdependence.
Electronics is one of the main reasons if not the main one systems like F-22 & F-15 are ahead of others and we know electronics is the main area in which Japan helped the US.

I doubt the Japanese are ahead of the US in truly cutting-edge military-grade electronics. They only have an advantage in the commercial sector due the higher demand in their economy for goods from that sector.

This is nothing like a Russia/china relationship. Russia doesn't show any interest in fielding anything military built by China.

Well the Russians are too poor right now to acquire anything new thats military built by anyone. They haven't even been building anything for themselves.

Whereas China is still fielding alot of stuff from Russia and just took delivery of more Kilos, Sovremenny's and Sukhoi jets.

The Chinese are trying to learn and understand the Russian tech in order to improve their own military technology, and to gain an understanding of how to effectively use such high tech hardware and provide training to also serve as just a temprorary stopgap measure in fields in which the Chinese are still lagging far behind in, like large surface combatants, submarines, and heavy long-range stike jets. Within 5-10 years China will no longer seek weapon procurements from Russia, and maybe we'll even see Chinese hardware in the Rusisan military ;)
 
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Sea Dog

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When 2 smilies appear in one post, I can see where ur going and why it's hard to make u understand.
U may not know foreign students form a big part of US universities' labs.
As I said many times, it's just the difference in the degree of dependence.

Yeah, but not that much. At my University it was something like 5% was foreign. I think currently it's at 10%. So I wouldn't call it that much. But still, the USA does indeed benefit from draining brains and talent from other countries. And yeah, it is a degree of dependance. The fact is, the USA is not dependant on anybody to field newer technologies. You may want to research who builds the F-22, including it's processors, it's avionics, and where the research was done (its RCS facility). also look into where the LCS is being done, and who's involved. You may want to go see how and where the Virginia was made. and who was involved. Japan was nowhere to be seen.

That's ok. U did not produce any proof to say PLA copied some tech as well.
That's because the proof is ubiquitous. Schumacher, you are one funny guy. Almost every piece of technology on China's new 052C is based on currently fielded technology. The HQ-9 being derived from Russian SA-10.
And I'm not going to bother typing anymore, because I can just see you're playing games. You're free to believe as you wish, but I think even PLAN officials would agree with my assessments in the interests of their own honest evaluations of their overall capabilities.

I respect China's newer ships. They are indeed a step above the last generation of ship design. China's making excellent gains. That's not in question. But it's hard not to notice that the systems onboard are based on currently fielded technology. And there's nothing wrong with that. Other nations are taking the same approach as this. But again, you can't make an assessment that this will catch China up to the top standard in 5 years.

;)

Well the Russians are too poor right now to acquire anything new thats military built by anyone. They haven't even been building anything for themselves.



The Chinese are trying to learn and understand the Russian tech in order to improve their own military technology, and to gain an understanding of how to effectively use such high tech hardware and provide training to also serve as just a temprorary stopgap measure in fields in which the Chinese are still lagging far behind in, like large surface combatants, submarines, and heavy long-range stike jets. Within 5-10 years China will no longer seek weapon procurements from Russia, and maybe we'll even see Chinese hardware in the Rusisan military

An honest man has arrived. Yep, I agree with your post. With the exception of the first part. Russia is indeed doing R & D into it's next generation of naval combatants. They are building a new SSBN (Borei), and the new SSK (Lada/Amur). They are also fielding newer ASM's in the form of ONYX. Not to mention that the Russian defense ministry has announced a couple of months back that they will be designing a newer Frigate. Russia is certainly sustaining themselves.

Within 5-10 years China will no longer seek weapon procurements from Russia, and maybe we'll even see Chinese hardware in the Rusisan military ;)

This may ultimately be the case. China is making gains in every field of military development. And I've been saying that throughout this thread. China has placed itself in a respectable category. But they are not truly self-sustaining yet. Perhaps Russia's military will stagnate and they may be purchasing some Chinese hardware. But right now, as you've said, it's not currently the case.

P.S. Sorry for the multiple posts mods. For some reason, the edit function doesn't work.
 
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Schumacher

Senior Member
Yeah, but not that much. At my University it was something like 5% was foreign. I think currently it's at 10%. So I wouldn't call it that much. But still, the USA does indeed benefit from draining brains and talent from other countries........

Don't know how accurate is ur figure. Anyway, if u add those who contribute in the industries, take Silicon Valley for instance, the proportion would be even higher.
And one should never underestimate this point as it's these guys who are the foundation the US military infrastructure.

....but I think even PLAN officials would agree with my assessments in the interests of their own honest evaluations of their overall capabilities.

Far from it, if the assessment u refer to is the one where u said PLA copied all of its newer tech, few casual observers, let alone any PLA officials, would agree.
 
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Sea Dog

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Don't know how accurate is ur figure. Anyway, if u add those who contribute in the industries, take Silicon Valley for instance, the proportion would be even higher.
And one should never underestimate this point as it's these guys who are the foundation the US military infrastructure.

Incidentally, I graduated from a Bay Area University (SJSU). And I also currently work for a Bay Area Company. Although I work in another facility near Sacramento now. I do read Bay Area tech journals regularly though. I don't remember the number, but the number of foreign tech workers in the region didn't exceed 27%. I wish I could remember. Even in my company, out of 200 people currently, only about 5 are foreign tech workers. Everybody else is US citizen by birth. That's in the realm of engineers, analysts, ground systems techs, IOT, Network people, and the business office. Honestly, there aren't that many when put in perspective. Actually most foreign employed workers that are apart of US companies, reside in their own countries for the cost issues.

As far as the military base, you're completely wrong. Before I joined this company I used to work for Lockheed. And then I went to contractual work within the Lockheed system. When it comes to even US citizens that are foreign born, they aren't allowed to do certain thing. We had certain encryption devices where I used to work, and these people needed to be escorted into the network room to do anything. And the encryptors were locked. Actually most foreign tech workers aren't any part of the military industries due to the clearances one needs to work certain stuff.


Far from it, if the assessment u refer to is the one where u said PLA copied all of its newer tech, few casual observers, let alone any PLA officials, would agree.

OK. But I think PLAN officials know where they stand. And how systems on newer designs were derived.
 
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