Chinese Engine Development

tphuang

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It appears that you didn't get the point I was trying to make by linking that article.

I was not posting that link to show off the achievements of WS-10. I was not arguing with you about how successful or unsuccessful the WS-10 development was, or how much praise should we give to AVIC. I was not judging the validity of that "WS-10 crash" statement based on whether it is a positive or negative news. None of these were the things I was trying to show.

My point from the very beginning has been that, in most cases, officially released information were much more reliable than what you hear from the so called "big shrimps" on the Chinese Internet. Yes, company statements and official media tend to gloss over things, and they often don't tell you everything we military watchers wanted to know, but they also have a pretty good track record of not making claims that were simply false. AVIC was under no pressure to confirm to the public whether the WS-10 caused any crash or not. Common sense would dictate that if a WS-10 crash did happen, they would simply omit talking about this, rather than going out of their way to insert a lie into their company statement. It would not make sense.

In contrast, what we hear from anonymous "big shrimps" on the Internet were far less reliable, for reasons I explained in my last post. Of course you can get a lot of information from these unknown sources and some of them could be very valuable, I'm not saying we should disregard them altogether, but I'd never put them at the same level of trustworthiness as official statements. Therefore, on this particular topic we're talking about here (whether WS-10 caused a crash), it is clear to me which answer was more likely to be true, especially when that "big shrimp's statement" wasn't even widely circulated on the Chinese Internet (indicates lack of corroboration).

In my previous post, I linked an article because you were saying that official sources tend to shy from describing troubles (and therefore we have to rely on "big shrimps" to get those information). If you read that article thoroughly, you would see that it summarized a lot of the troubles we now know about the WS-10's development. I was telling you, to the best of my knowledge, most, if not all of those details originated from old reports on China Aviation News, which was an official source. It did not came from the "big shrimps". It would be unwise to assume that we must rely on unofficial (hard to confirm) sources for negative news. After-all, sometimes the "big shrimps" themselves were just people being very good at searching and extracting information from open publication.

I don't expect anyone else to think exactly like I do, but I hope I've made it clear as to why I believed one claim rather than its opposing claim. This is my analysis on relevance and reliability. Given the presence of an official statement, I don't believe in rumors that WS-10 caused a crash, just like I don't believe in rumors of 001a having catapults. It has nothing to do with being unable to accept negative news on Chinese achievements. I sure hope that's not what you're suggesting.

I think you were inferring on the quality of big shrimps that I was referring to, when I'm extremely careful about what sources I use. But this has gone on extremely long without resolution, so let's stop this particular dispute here.
 

kroko

Senior Member
China is creating a new company to develop aircraft engines.

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I wonder if this is the new company created from the merger of the country´s engine makers. If that is so, does it means that this company will get all the engine projects military and civilian alike (WS-10, 13, 15, 20) or it will only get the civilian ones?
 

Blackstone

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China is creating a new company to develop aircraft engines.

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I wonder if this is the new company created from the merger of the country´s engine makers. If that is so, does it means that this company will get all the engine projects military and civilian alike (WS-10, 13, 15, 20) or it will only get the civilian ones?
New jet engine SOE...? Probably will be just as effective as current SOEs.
 

taxiya

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China is creating a new company to develop aircraft engines.

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I wonder if this is the new company created from the merger of the country´s engine makers. If that is so, does it means that this company will get all the engine projects military and civilian alike (WS-10, 13, 15, 20) or it will only get the civilian ones?

Yes, it is a merger as you expected. All engine business of AVIC are transferred to this new company.

For the second question, I think it is a natural conclusion, there is simply nobody else.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Seriously, I don't get why you keep on doing this, especially when there is you-know-what-heat going on right now. Effectiveness of the new SOE was not Kroko's question, after all.
Taxiya, I have serious doubts about Chinese jet engine design, manufacturing, and know-how, and I express my PoV on the forum. You are free to agree/disagree. If you think I'm out of line, you could report me to the moderators. And if what I say offends you that much, then ignore me.
 

tphuang

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China is creating a new company to develop aircraft engines.

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I wonder if this is the new company created from the merger of the country´s engine makers. If that is so, does it means that this company will get all the engine projects military and civilian alike (WS-10, 13, 15, 20) or it will only get the civilian ones?
On the first look, I think is more likely for investing into developing engines for airliner projects. Military projects should all have their own funding already.
 

N00813

Junior Member
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The merger also allows the formerly-separate companies and their engineering teams to share tech and experience. It might lessen any "reinventing the wheel"-type delays.
 

taxiya

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Registered Member
Taxiya, I have serious doubts about Chinese jet engine design, manufacturing, and know-how, and I express my PoV on the forum. You are free to agree/disagree. If you think I'm out of line, you could report me to the moderators. And if what I say offends you that much, then ignore me.
I have no objection to your PoV, the doubts, but only considering it unrelated to what Kroko asked for. And it is unnecessary considering the ongoing event, but it is your choice of course.

Out of line is a heavy word that I wouldn't use. So I don't think it worth to involve moderators, I prefer we all be self regulated as we are all adults. To be clear and honest, your doubt or critics of Chinese SOE does not offend me. But bringing it in when (in my opinion) unrelated to the question or subject does annoy me. Again, that is only what I think, I will consider your advice of ignoring.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I have no objection to your PoV, the doubts, but only considering it unrelated to what Kroko asked for. And it is unnecessary considering the ongoing event, but it is your choice of course.

Out of line is a heavy word that I wouldn't use. So I don't think it worth to involve moderators, I prefer we all be self regulated as we are all adults. To be clear and honest, your doubt or critics of Chinese SOE does not offend me. But bringing it in when (in my opinion) unrelated to the question or subject does annoy me. Again, that is only what I think, I will consider your advice of ignoring.
Why he does that? He does that because his mind is 75 years old and thinks nothing could have changed since when he was 30. He thinks Chinese engines can't be doing well for the same reason that my 85 year old grandfather refuses to believe that organizing all his documents on a laptop could be better than scribbling them on notes and sticking them to different places in the house. His belief is based on the logic of, "Did a Flanker crash due to FBW issue? Then it must be the engine malfunction being covered up. Did no Flankers crash with WS-10? Then it must mean that Flankers crashed with WS-10 but were covered up. Did they say there were issues? Then they must be truthful. Did they say the engines were working fine now? Then they must be lying. Were there issues with Taihang when researching it in 2009? Then those issues must still be there. After all, it's only 7 years later. What can the Chinese do in 7 years? Their supercomputers haven't advanced one step and neither have their engines. Oh, their supercomputer won first place? Geeze! How much did they bribe the fella scoring it?" LOL He basically shows up on this thread every once in a while to throw in a, "Nope, lies. Can't be happening" into the conversation.
 
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