F-22 Raptor Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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Hyperwarp
Captain
Any french speakers here? A brief summery would be nice. I'm linking to the original post at Keypublishing forums -
Brat, should find this quite interesring. It seems at the recent exercise in the UAE, F-22 did not use the AN/APG-77, yet the AN/ALR-94 picked up the Rafale and ended up with a BVR kill???
Despite Rafale having the highly advanced Thales Spectra with possible Active Cancellation, it is no match for the Raptor in BVR.
Brat, should find this quite interesring. It seems at the recent exercise in the UAE, F-22 did not use the AN/APG-77, yet the AN/ALR-94 picked up the Rafale and ended up with a BVR kill???
Despite Rafale having the highly advanced Thales Spectra with possible Active Cancellation, it is no match for the Raptor in BVR.
Oui 100 % French
A brief summery
yes F-22 did not use the AN/APG-77, and presumably detect Rafale with her AN/ALR-94 and win the BVR and Dogfight combat announced for this simulated combat.
F-22 get same agility, turn rates the 2 excellent ! but F-22 have more energy with a more fast speed confirmed by climb rate 350 m/sec ! vs 305 which remains a very good rate ! T-50 annouced to 360 ?
If it is exact, normaly... confirm what I think AN/ALR-94 is excellent i have a range 400 or + km which is often underestimated even by specialists about A2A combat now difficult estimate such a system...
Same things for APG-77 more stealth less emissions as other radars possible i think.
Yes very good system but no cancellation as EW defensive systems on others fighters, reduces the radar range by blurring depends systems but much up to 80 %.
But Rafale radar range increase when he is cued by SPECTRA up to 25 %.
Jamming decrease but in fact no main change fighter with the less good radar remains inferior he detect after and jamm after normaly...
Then in this case to very long range F-22 win but more close to ~ 50 km Rafale can identifies ennemy ( detection ~ 100 but can be a friend fighter... ) with her IRST the F-22 before him which don' t get it.
In general IRST allow attack up to 80 km max EFT and F-35 IRST would be the best.
Help well especialy vs Stealth target less long range as radar However, EM radar emisions are the more locatable.
Vs a target with AB the IRST range is about the double and better for IR signature fighters with 2 engines but ofc actual 4.5/5 gen fighters with very powerful reactors are less stealth as those before.
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Hyperwarp
Captain
Oui 100 % French
A brief summery
...
Merci beaucoup
So WVR was also won by the Raptor on this occasion. In previous engagements Rafale had managed to score WVR kills IIRC. When it comes to BVR I think there is only 1 BVR (declassified) kill of an F-22 by a EA-18G and the EF-Typhoon had managed to avoid BVR kills once or twice.
Sorry, WVR and IIRC what is it
"Within Visual Range" and "If I recall".
Any french speakers here? A brief summery would be nice. I'm linking to the original post at Keypublishing forums -
Brat, should find this quite interesring. It seems at the recent exercise in the UAE, F-22 did not use the AN/APG-77, yet the AN/ALR-94 picked up the Rafale and ended up with a BVR kill???
That was the objective of ATF, that nothing would be a match, BVR, or WVR, fun that the oldest 5th Gen, is still the best? 20 years out from her first flight?? and nothing else is really even close.
That's why the Smart thing to do here, would be to use the Raptor as the basis of a 5.5 Gen aircraft in order to fill the inevitable gap before 6 gen.
The Raptor was crafted to a very firm vision of what it would be, and what it would do, each of those characteristics are sadly lacking from any 6th gen proposal, a sure recipe for failure!
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Interesting stuff & thanks for posting. However, I don't think SPECTRA had a chance to play a role here anyway. If the Raptor purely relied on the Rafale's emmisions to aim the shot, there were no hostile emmission SPECTRA could have jamed or cancled. Except for maybe the missile radar in the terminal stage. But since no live missile was fired, we'll of course not know if Rafale's defensive systems would be able to pick it up and spoof it.It seems at the recent exercise in the UAE, F-22 did not use the AN/APG-77, yet the AN/ALR-94 picked up the Rafale and ended up with a BVR kill???
EMCON and directed comms should be the option then I guess. I wonder if those specialized data links instead of omnidirectional radiation would be usefull on late 4gen aircraft, that already have LO features.
While I agree with the notion of stuffing latest tech on an existing airframe, I don't see it likely in this case. F-16s & -18s were extremely successfull doing what you propose. But their production lines were never really closed. While all the F-22 production know-how has been preserved, I guess reopening the line will proof to be too costly with F-35, LRS-B and eventually 6th gen tech development running concurently.
After the immediate desire to put HMS + full AIM-9X block II integration on the Raptor, a radar / electronics upgrade + IRST integration should be an option in the medium term.
And finally, in preparation for the 6gen, maybe additional sensors like L-band radar in the leading edge, missile-blinding defensive laser and a variable cycle engine refit. After all, the GE YF120 engine flew on the YF-22. But I would exspect all of that to go onto existing airframes.
Brumby
Major
Oui 100 % French
A brief summery
yes F-22 did not use the AN/APG-77, and presumably detect Rafale with her AN/ALR-94 and win the BVR and Dogfight combat announced for this simulated combat.
This story once again affirms that situational awareness is the key to success in any air to air encounters. The AN/ALR-94 is able to geo-locate emitters up to 250 nm with its supposedly 30 apertures. Active cancellation even if the Rafael has it (which I doubt) would be useless in this instance as you can't cancel non emission.
Interestingly, the F-35 has a similar system but whether it is as powerful is an unknown.
Brumby
Major
I agree with AFB that a 5.5 gen option which is a F-22 airframe rewired with the latest electronics, lasers and powered by a VCE is a compelling arqument. The biggest huddle in my view is political/psychological as it would acknowledge a reversal of position. I think the 6th gen project is wishful and out of reach financially with the ongoing F-35, the Ohio replacement and the LRSB. A F-22 version 2.0 has a clearer path forward and a lesser financial burden relative to a completely new airframe.