2015 PLAN Update & Review by Jeff Head

Blitzo

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Still banking on that PLAN LHD or two coming online before a second CV. The fact that China pushed ahead with inducting the Z-10 and Z-19 in numbers tells me they see the unique value and broad application of rotary air assets.

... PLA have increased their army aviation capability quite dramatically over the last few years but we have seen no evidence of navalized Z-10s or Z-19s for PLAN.
If anything I'd say the development of navalized attack helicopters and navalized transport helicopters that would be present on a LHD has lagged behind the carrier airwing.

I also expect an LHD to possibly launch or even be commissioned earlier than 001A, but that's more because I think an LHD is much smaller and also somewhat simpler than a CV to design and construct.... not because the PLAN somehow values CVs less than LHDs in their long or medium term strategy.
 
We've been through this before, so I won't repeat the discussion that we had, however I will say that I think you are vastly underestimating the need for organic airpower (mostly for CAP) for a PLAN taskgroup operating within westpac against an advanced foe, in the short and medium term. Carriers are the only solution for this need.

You also mentioned China's "foreign policy and strategic goals" in the previous discussion, could you expand on what you actually believe China's strategic goals are? Because IMO, China's strategic goals very much demands a robust carrier capability in the medium term at the latest, whether it is in the western pacific or in blue water.

In westpac and even within the first island chain, a carrier capability is wholly necessary (as I mentioned before) to provide organic airpower (CAP and strike) as well as to provide taskforce fixed wing AEW (essential in air and missile defence).
In blue water and in expeditionary missions (such as limited bombardment campaigns far in the future against say, non-state actors in Africa which threaten China's interests), carriers provide an essential large multirole platform for persistent ISR, strike, and CAP which no other type of vessel can match. And of course, AEW, CAP and strike are necessary in blue water to protect against states with competent navies that might try to take a bite out of PLAN.

... PLA have increased their army aviation capability quite dramatically over the last few years but we have seen no evidence of navalized Z-10s or Z-19s for PLAN.
If anything I'd say the development of navalized attack helicopters and navalized transport helicopters that would be present on a LHD has lagged behind the carrier airwing.

I also expect an LHD to possibly launch or even be commissioned earlier than 001A, but that's more because I think an LHD is much smaller and also somewhat simpler than a CV to design and construct.... not because the PLAN somehow values CVs less than LHDs in their long or medium term strategy.

In terms of foreign policy and strategic goals:
- Non-interference in other states' internal affairs.
- Peaceful rise. In other words pushing back the China threat PR campaign.
- Avoiding full scale conflict with the US and probably any full scale conflict that might draw in the US outside of China's core interests, which is clearly identified as Taiwan and the Spratlys, less clearly so the Diaoyus/Senkakus.
- Hedging SLOC's with the Silk Road land route which requires the co-operation or non-interference of countries which may be bothered, justifiably or not, by Chinese naval "expansion", namely the US and India.

A CV program that goes beyond training runs counter to all of the above. However a LHD program has a much less aggressive demeanor, is less capable offensively as you pointed out, and is much more appropriate for MOOTW such as SAR and humanitarian missions, all of which helps all of the above more, or at least doesn't hurt them as much as a CV program. That LHD's are simpler and cheaper than CV's just makes them that much more efficient to have.

If worse comes to worse and China has to fight a full scale conflict with top tier opponents beyond the First Island Chain China has no chance even if it has a few CV's which would just be juicy targets. More importantly the CV's communicate aggression rather than deterrence. Better to develop long range missiles, land based airpower, space, cyber, and even unconventional weapons which stand a better chance of actually deterring a conflict in the first place as well as being more survivable in one.

CV's are even less effective in a full scale conflict within the First Island Chain with top tier opponents, rather it ties down assets having to defend it and all of the above weapons can be both more efficient and more effective in combat than CV's.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
In terms of foreign policy and strategic goals:
- Non-interference in other states' internal affairs.
- Peaceful rise. In other words pushing back the China threat PR campaign.
- Avoiding full scale conflict with the US and probably any full scale conflict that might draw in the US outside of China's core interests, which is clearly identified as Taiwan and the Spratlys, less clearly so the Diaoyus/Senkakus.
- Hedging SLOC's with the Silk Road land route which requires the co-operation or non-interference of countries which may be bothered, justifiably or not, by Chinese naval "expansion", namely the US and India.

I'll refer to your four points one by one, before summarizing them:

-Non-interference: a carrier may or may not project a policy of "interference" however it will be China's actions and the way it uses its military assets that determines whether it continues to abide by its policy of non-intervention. More importantly, China has shown that it is increasingly willing to interfere to a degree or at least become involved, with the affairs of other countries, from political and economic engagement to sending peacekeeping troops across the globe, so its previous definition of non-interference is beginning to change.
-China's peaceful rise: again, China can develop a fleet of aircraft carriers while remaining peaceful. Just because it rises peacefully doesn't mean its navy has to remain without organic air support or organic fixed wing AEW. Furthermore a LHD is no more pacifist than a carrier, given its amphibious assault capabilities are as prominent as its MOOTW capabilities.
-Avoiding full scale conflict with the US: a fleet of carriers will not cause China to be drawn into conflict with the US. Just because China might have some carriers in westpac and deploy some carriers into Indian ocean doesn't mean China and the US will start fighting a hot war. What will happen is that the US and China will continue sizing each other up militarily speaking and conduct surveillance and tracking of both sides, and in that sense may result in a degree of miscalculation. But that is just as likely to occur if China had an equally large fleet of LHDs compared to carriers. There's also the fact that avoiding full scale conflict with the US requires capable conventional deterrence, in other words, the ability to fight a conventional war and either win or at least cause significant casualties to the US in event of a war, which a carrier is absolutely essential for (fixed wing AEW, CAP, strike as aforementioned)
-There are countries which will remain hostile to China which cannot likely be turned to become positive to China regardless if PLAN sailed carriers or LHDs. Poor relationships with countries are far more dependent on other factors rather than what kind of flat top are sailed. Many partner countries that China is seeking to develop its one belt one road vision with are not particularly hostile to China either, and for hostile countries that may be uncomfortable with Chinese carriers there are also a variety of other ways to mitigate their unease through political discourse and simply, say, not sailing a PLAN CSG well clear of Indian EEZ to reach waters near Africa.


What I'm reading overall from your four points is that you think Chinese carriers will be perceived by other countries as particularly aggressive and run counter to China's foreign policy positions.
My general reply is that China's foreign policy (including peaceful rise and non-intervention) can very easily remain in place while having carriers. China simply can not go around bombing random countries with their flattops or sailing too close to the coasts of nations who may be unnerved by Chinese CSGs. There are many ways to mitigate any possible unease over Chinese carriers as well, and if China didn't buy a fleet of carriers and used that money for a fleet of cruisers and LHDs it won't exactly be seen too differently by the governments of those countries.
China also should develop its military procurement based on weighing strategic needs versus strategic negative consequences, and the negative reception by other countries simply doesn't seem like a particularly significant consequence to contend to when we consider the PLAN are seeking to develop a blue water navy with significant offensive capability anyway.

There is no significant evidence that suggests a meaningful number of countries will react negatively to the existence and deployment of Chinese carriers, and that the summative effect will be detrimental to Chinese strategic goals (say, a large number of nations of the new silk road and maritime silk road, AIIB, etc leave their agreements with China).
If anything a number of those countries have no beef with China and may welcome greater PLAN ability to provide stability to SLOCs in their region of water.


A CV program that goes beyond training runs counter to all of the above. However a LHD program has a much less aggressive demeanor, is less capable offensively as you pointed out, and is much more appropriate for MOOTW such as SAR and humanitarian missions, all of which helps all of the above more, or at least doesn't hurt them as much as a CV program. That LHD's are simpler and cheaper than CV's just makes them that much more efficient to have.

An LHD is just as capable in offensive missions (amphibious assault, invasion) as a carrier, while a carrier loaded with helicopters can be just as capable as an LHD in MOOTW.

LHDs and carriers are both equally offensive minded and intended for power projection as their primary missions, while both also retain MOOTW capabilities. If some other countries do perceive carriers as being many times more aggressive then that is their problem, not China's.

LHDs are definitely simpler, smaller and cheaper than CVs however they are not more efficient at providing fixed wing AEW, strike, CAP, just as a carrier is less efficient than a LHD at delivering AAVs onto shore, sustaining a marine complement, or acting as a mother ship for LCACs.

Of course, LHDs are also far less useful in fleet vs fleet engagements as they are only able to embark helicopters (which admittedly may be useful for ASW and some degree of AEW), and lack the ability to embark long range strike fighters (for strike and CAP), and more importantly cannot embark fixed wing AEW.



If worse comes to worse and China has to fight a full scale conflict with top tier opponents beyond the First Island Chain China has no chance even if it has a few CV's which would just be juicy targets. More importantly the CV's communicate aggression rather than deterrence. Better to develop long range missiles, land based airpower, space, cyber, and even unconventional weapons which stand a better chance of actually deterring a conflict in the first place as well as being more survivable in one.

CV's are even less effective in a full scale conflict within the First Island Chain with top tier opponents, rather it ties down assets having to defend it and all of the above weapons can be both more efficient and more effective in combat than CV's.

CVs do tie down other assets that have to defend it, but it also provides significant capabilities which no other asset can provide. I've mentioned fixed wing AEW, strike, CAP already. More importantly, whether it is a high intensity war or a lower intensity operation, Chinese ships will be operating in taskgroups anyway where each ship contributes to each other's self defence, so adding a carrier into the mix does not significantly change the concept of operation for PLAN. If anything a carrier will assist the defence of the taskgroup by providing greater air defence, air surveillance and surface strike capabilities.

Whether CVs should be abandoned or even reduced in priority to better fund other weapons is another discussion, but given China is definitely seeking to project power in future beyond westpac in future, and that CVs are an essential capability in fighting against an opponent who has their own CVs (USN) as well as providing invaluable fixed wing AEW, I can't see how CVs should not be pursued.
Whether PLAN CVs will only remain sitting ducks in a full scale war against a high tech enemy is also another matter (it very much depends on when such a conflict occurs), but we've also discussed in the previous thread that there is a need to develop core carrier competencies earlier while also developing the capabilities to defend carriers. China is doing both, so unless you believe China should only develop carriers well after it has a massive fleet of escorts, capable SSNs, MPAs, and airwing ready to go I can't see any other way of reconciling its short term and medium term carrier requirements with a cautious approach in defending its carriers.

I also have no idea what you mean by "CV's communicate aggression rather than deterrence" -- the USN uses CVNs for deterring countries all the time. Aggression is very much deterrence depending on how one wields aggressive capabilities.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Registered Member
I will now outline why I think China absolutely needs CVs, divided in two categories:

-High intensity conflict in westpac: in the short term, PLAN CVs will remain vulnerable in westpac during a conflict with high tech opponents. I agree. But in the medium and long term, with the increased ability to defend of PLA to defend their CVs, they provide very essential capabilities to any task group:
  1. Organic combat air patrol: any PLAN naval taskforce operating in westpac will face opposing airpower whether it be land based or carrier based. Lacking CAP, one will have to only rely on SAMs and ciws to defend against aircraft and their payloads. Despite the increased utility of shipboard radar and air defences, the best way to counter other aircraft is still other aircraft.
  2. Organic long range surface strike: PLAN taskforces lacking CVs may have long range anti ship missiles, however they are also far more susceptible to the need for mid course guidance and have a more vulnerable kill chain. Long range strike fighters with anti ship missiles can deliver far more assured kills as a fighter is able to provide its own "kill chain" using its own onboard sensors and to actively search for targets, whereas a long range missile is either reliant on offboard sensors to provide targeting info or is only able to fly a preprogrammed search pattern which may or may not be accurate (effectively fire and forget)
  3. Fixed wing AEW: this is without doubt the most important capability a CV provides for a taskforce. Modern ship radars are capable, and may be more powerful than what can be fitted on an E-2 sized plane, but they are limited by surface radar horizon, say a 40m high array on a ship can only detect a 10m sea skimmer at 40km away. But a fixed wing AEW operating at standard 10km altitude, against a 10m altitude sea skimming target will be able to detect them at over 400km away. The benefit of providing early warning, and possibly even midcourse support and guidance for long range SAMs, not to mention directing CAP to intercept those targets is immeasurable.

-Low intensity operations in blue water: carrier capabilities will be useful for PLAN immediately in the short term in low intensity operations. Its sheer size makes them useful for evacuation, MOOTW, command/control, not to mention general strike/CAP capabilities. In low intensity operations in blue water, off Africa, these abilities will be capable even if a carrier operating here may be vulnerable to the USN if conflict is ever elicited. But PLAN carriers operating in blue water will not operate in a hostile way to USN so that should be unlikely. Therefore a PLAN CV's capabilities can be very much seen relative to the most likely foes of a PLAN taskfocce in the area: non-state military actors or 3rd rate national military.
  1. The same capabilities mentioned above also apply here so I won't repeat them, however there is additional utility in some respects that I will emphasize
  2. Persistent ISR capabilities: a carrier with fighter aircraft, fixed wing AEW and possibly even long range UAVs is far more ISR capable than any other kind of naval vessel. In blue water, operating in support of a low intensity operation against irregular militia groups or terrorist groups (say in Africa) that threaten Chinese interests, good ISR will be essential in conducting strikes and SOF operations, among others
  3. Persistent strike capabilities: lacking airbases in the region, a carrier with strike fighters is the easiest way to provide on station close air support and strike against targets of opportunity. LACMs are the best way of conducting strike against fixed, high value targets, but in a low intensity operation such targets will be rare if not nonexistent
  4. Employing NFZs: related to 3, if China ever needs to impose a NFZ against a hostile state or non state actor the ability to conduct strike and perform CAP with AEW and ISR support while lacking regional airbases, a carrier is the only option.

The above high and low intensity missions and scenarios are in my opinion, all very likely ones to occur in the short, medium and long term.
The two main issues which preclude carrier procurement should be funding and whether carrier funding will excessively drain from other capabilities, and also if any window of vulnerability in the short term where carriers may be vulnerable and if these windows of vulnerability are deemed too much of a risk to develop carrier competencies in the first place.

At this stage I see no evidence for negative reactions from other countries as being significant enough to cause PLAN delay in acquiring carrier capabilities, especially when many of those countries (such as US, India, Japan) already operate or are intending to operate flat tops of their own.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I think I've spoken on this topic multiple times in the past so I will keep my rehash shorter ;). Chinese planners think in terms of decades not years. Couple that with the complexities and longevity of inducting real organic air power into any navy it'll be foolish for china or any navy for that matter to start getting serious about them only when the need arises or only when it aligns with a nation's strategic interest.

It would've been too late by then.

While you may or may not be correct in determining that China's current strategic interest may not necessarily require massive air power projection from the seas, Chinese planners however are probably thinking out to mid century if not even further out thus I truly believe that in their mindset at least, they have made the determination that China's strategic needs in 2040, 2050 will be very different than today thereby requiring an already well established and capable organic power by then.

To achieve that capability you need to start today. Tomorrow is too late. As long as it takes to design, construct a carrier etc it takes an even longer amount of time for a navy to fully and effectively inculcate a carrier/carriers into their fleet to fully maximize it's potential. Believe it or not, building a carrier or even purchasing one is actually the easy part IF you've never own one or operated one before. Learning how to use it effectively and maximizing it's capabilities afterward and making it part of your entire force structure takes a very long time to master.
 
I'll refer to your four points one by one, before summarizing them:
...

Blitzio, once again I am agreeing to disagree since our key assumptions about Chinese strategies are so different. I recognize that all your tactical and technical points are valid, we just disagree on the underlying strategic needs, goals, and approach.

I think I've spoken on this topic multiple times in the past so I will keep my rehash shorter ;). Chinese planners think in terms of decades not years. Couple that with the complexities and longevity of inducting real organic air power into any navy it'll be foolish for china or any navy for that matter to start getting serious about them only when the need arises or only when it aligns with a nation's strategic interest.

It would've been too late by then.

While you may or may not be correct in determining that China's current strategic interest may not necessarily require massive air power projection from the seas, Chinese planners however are probably thinking out to mid century if not even further out thus I truly believe that in their mindset at least, they have made the determination that China's strategic needs in 2040, 2050 will be very different than today thereby requiring an already well established and capable organic power by then.

To achieve that capability you need to start today. Tomorrow is too late. As long as it takes to design, construct a carrier etc it takes an even longer amount of time for a navy to fully and effectively inculcate a carrier/carriers into their fleet to fully maximize it's potential. Believe it or not, building a carrier or even purchasing one is actually the easy part IF you've never own one or operated one before. Learning how to use it effectively and maximizing it's capabilities afterward and making it part of your entire force structure takes a very long time to master.

All of that is valid but it does not necessitate China building multiple carriers right now. For those same reasons I think they will stick with just one, maybe two, carriers for another decade, and that will be sufficient preparation for longer term expansion of the program.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Blitzio, once again I am agreeing to disagree since our key assumptions about Chinese strategies are so different. I recognize that all your tactical and technical points are valid, we just disagree on the underlying strategic needs, goals, and approach.



All of that is valid but it does not necessitate China building multiple carriers right now. For those same reasons I think they will stick with just one, maybe two, carriers for another decade, and that will be sufficient preparation for longer term expansion of the program.

Actually it does.. my small cracked crystal ball tells me China will likely put to sea 2 carriers in the 2020s (mid or late) followed by another two more in the mid/late 2030s.

While the construction of these ships are taking place they will also be spending the next couple decades honing their skills on carrier aviation not just from a training and tactical standpoint but organizationally, strategically, developing sound doctrines, procedures etc of deploying organic air power, when where why etc. Those things take a long time to develop and master for someone new to carriers and carrier aviation and using it as a strategic asset.

USN is different in that we can hit the ground running unlike PLAN, all we need is just the hardware but that didn't develop overnight either. It has taken many many decades to perfect what we have today and even then a lot of things are still being learnt.

So from a standpoint of timeline it makes perfect sense. The Liaoning is just the very early dawn of PLAN's carrier aviation and it's actually good that we're all here to witness it.

This would fit in well with their naval planning and architecture out to the 2040s-2050s and beyond.
 
Actually it does.. my small cracked crystal ball tells me China will likely put to sea 2 carriers in the 2020s (mid or late) followed by another two more in the mid/late 2030s.
...

In that case our conclusions align even though I did not think they need to start building carriers now in order to put them to sea in the mid or late 2020's.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
In that case our conclusions align even though I did not think they need to start building carriers now in order to put them to sea in the mid or late 2020's.

well it takes about 10 years give or take one or two from first steel cut to deployment so them starting now or soon makes perfect sense. Keep in mind they have never constructed one before so it may take even more than than if built by say Newport News.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
In that case our conclusions align even though I did not think they need to start building carriers now in order to put them to sea in the mid or late 2020's.
So, PanAsian, what will you say when pictures of CV001 construction appear online later this year? I suspect not only will we see that, we'll also see pictures of LHD/LHA construction.
 
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