US F/A-XX and F-X 6th Gen Aircraft News Thread

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
I read AFB's post 104 and all I could get out of it was this guy...

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

a four-star admiral in the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and is the most senior naval officer assigned to serve in the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

...doesn't know what he is talking about.

@Jeff Head @kwaigonegin

Being one of the few "actual" navy professionals on this forum, what do you guys think about your current CNO?
 

Scratch

Captain
Ok, maybe I'm misreading the "full spectrum" part (still not really covinced, though :) )

Advances / development of new concepts to fight in the electromagnetic spectrum are, however, already existant in the 5th gen iteration, IMO. And I believe that is one of the things that is yet to be fully understood. What does all that stuff in the 5th gens really bring / mean?

With multiple sensors, primariy X-band AESA and IRST / EOTS so far, a (real-time) multi-spectral multi-angle (cross-platform) sensor fusion might allow for even quicker threat detection and classification and allocating the right "weapon" to achieve the desired effect. Putting passive surveillance equipment on every jet (to include direction finding capable equipment in the longer bands) will allow to gather an enormous amount of data, that will need to be interpreted. It will also create airborne, multi-static active sensors. It may also allow to target specific objects with EW meassures, instead of an area.

That being said, all that new EM noise, the additional comms and active EW means, will of course give away info to the opponent.

IMO, that either means closing down the enemy recievers with massive amounts of EM noise, or find smart ways to communicate. E.g. directional antennas on every asset, that only radiate into the direction of an intendet recipient.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
first lets take a moment here and recognize something, there is not one Sixth generation Program but four. two are black under Darpa, two are White under there services, two are for the navy two are for the USAF. Between today and 2025 The USN and USAF could merge them into a Joint White program but today there are four.
the White Folders for the USN and USAF are empty, With only a Cover sheet outlying wants. the Air force's Next Generation Tactical Aircraft and the USN's Next Generation Air Dominance.
the Two Black Folders are Darpa X plane Demonstrators And in those folders are hundreds of subprograms for specialized systems and subsystems that will form the two fighters some are common between the two demonstrators some unique the contents of these folders may become the contents of the white folders but that's down the line.
So If there is not one program we need to then recognize that the two services may not share the same vision or definition of a sixth generation fighter.
The Navy's NGAD aims for a 40,000 lb (18,000 kg) weight class fighter well the USAF seems to be aiming heavier.
with this is mind I think We should then Take our list of desired wants and break them down by individual service wants.
FA/XX
1. Spectrum dominance
Navy fighters cannot be specialists. There have been Some Navy fighters that have been specialists in the past sure but the limitations of number of available aircraft vs space vs crew capacity of a ship always force multi role. Every "superiority" or "Dominance" in the Navy has to be a predator of both air and sea. If it's not capable of strike it will be looked to be made as capable of ground strike. the Navy needs this. it cannot afford to waste the airframes.
2. Advance propulsion
Critical questions remain but one of the driving forces behind the program is range. not speed. the Official Combat Radius of a F35C is about 600 NM. that is the distance a F35C can fly patrol there for a set amount of time and return to base with minimal fuel left, this is now a problem because of the potential of systems like the DF21D. ( please let's not debate that system or implications or there are threads for that. I am using it as a point of example) The Df21D represents a class of weapon the Antiship Ballistic missile. This Class of Weapon is designed to force Carriers back over a thousand nautical miles. to push the carrier so that it's aircraft is not in a position to be a threat. right now the PRC and Russia have the capability to deploy such systems in the next decade. That forces the USN to question the relevance of it's Carriers. It may not be as dead as a Battle ship, but why invest multi billion dollars and thousands of lives on Ford class Carriers if they can't be placed in position to launch strikes without risk of being sunk with no chances of defence.
This is part of the argument for ADVENT.
Imagine if you will a traditional fighter jet engine the F135 is the Bugatti Veyron it's high powered, it's sexy with reclining leather seats, that goes really fast, and gets really ______ gas mileage!
Now Imagine a traditional Jet liner engine as a Audi S8 it's got nowhere near the speed or horse power but alot of the same tech and it's got fuel economy that allows it to go far beyond what the F135 could ever dream of in terms of range. It sips fuel, That gives it legs. for the same amount of fuel it will get you twice maybe three times as far but it will take longer.
This is Where the ADVENT comes in. this is where the YF120 would have been but it was not deemed needed. It's a platform that bridges the gap. in our car analogy it's the Shadowhawk STV it's a car powered by an engine that gets the same horse power and speed as the Veyron but with a MPG closer to that of the S8.
YF120 used a variable cycle engine, but the USAF aired conservatively and moved to a conventional engine. now with the push of ASBM's pushing Carriers back the Navy is really forced to find a way to keep in the fight and ADaptive Versatile ENgine Technology could do that if it could double or triple the range of a fighter from the F35's 600NM to 1,200 NM or 1,800NM Allowing the Carrier to operate from a standoff but with most if not all it's capacity.

3. Autonomous sensor and payload integration
As the range increases and stealth proliferates Navy fighters are going to have to hunt smarter. Smaller more sophisticated targets with less sensor help from the carrier group. this is going to drive sensors and weapons. lots of sensors and weapons it needs to see more and target more.
Now the Navy has less flexibility of weight vs other trade offs then the Air Force. If the Air force builds a larger( read Heavier) fighter they can just use more runway, The only real issue for that is the size of the Airbase and a Airbase dwarfs the size of any Aircraft carrier unless it's on a atoll there is no real limitation for the Air Force other then financial. so the Navy is more willing to trade on Stealth but don't think this means that it's not going to include stealth in the design it's just more willing to shed some stealth for other things. more frontal stealth then all aspect.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
YF120 used a variable cycle engine, but the USAF aired conservatively and moved to a conventional engine. now with the push of ASBM's pushing Carriers back the Navy is really forced to find a way to keep in the fight and ADaptive Versatile ENgine Technology could do that if it could double or triple the range of a fighter from the F35's 600NM to 1,200 NM or 1,800NM Allowing the Carrier to operate from a standoff but with most if not all it's capacity.

I don't believe the ADVENT program will decrease SFC to a point where the F-35 will double or triple its range. The ADVENT is expected to decrease SFC by 25% compared to the F135.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

AFRL calculates adaptive technology will improve engine fuel efficiency by 25% over the F135 powering the F-35, increasing aircraft combat radius by 25-30% and persistence by 30-40%. The engine could also help address the anti-access/area-denial challenges posed by a potential conflict with an near-peer adversary such as China, says AFRL. This could be achieved via increasing supersonic-cruise radius by 50% and reducing the aerial-refueling tanker burden by 30-74%.

You are going to need a new aircraft if you want it to have a combat radius of 1800 NM.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
same point, I was using F35's range as a point of comparison. and in this case we are talking about not one but two new range.

An aircraft with a 2000 Km radius of action with 500-1000 Km range hypersonic missile could do wonders to beat the ASBMs. This is what the CNO is probably looking for. And this can be done without risking a pilot. The technology for it already exists and already being implemented by a few countries.

If you have an aircraft that can fire a very capable weapon outside the range of any enemy radar, then stealth is going to be quite useless.

But you are going to have to spend a lot more on ISR systems, like stealthy UAVs that can fly around for many days at a time and something like the SR-72 for quick flybys to gather intelligence.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Drones will be part but are not always the answer and the longer the range from the command post the more lag between signal and platform. having a drone operate autonomously on preplanned missions is one thing but actually attacking a target or performing CAP that's a whole other bag. For that a man needs to be in the loop best way for that is a manned fighter.
 

Brumby

Major
I read AFB's post 104 and all I could get out of it was this guy...

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



...doesn't know what he is talking about.

@Jeff Head @kwaigonegin

Being one of the few "actual" navy professionals on this forum, what do you guys think about your current CNO?

The CNO is the Chief Naval Officer, and not the Chief Technology Officer. There is a position framed around technology and reserach that reports in to him within the chain of command. The CNO might not say wise things about technology in our opinion but he is there for a reason. When you rise to the top of the chain, it carries previleges. Let's try to focus on the subject of the thread and not on personalities.
 

Brumby

Major
An aircraft with a 2000 Km radius of action with 500-1000 Km range hypersonic missile could do wonders to beat the ASBMs. This is what the CNO is probably looking for. And this can be done without risking a pilot. The technology for it already exists and already being implemented by a few countries.

If you have an aircraft that can fire a very capable weapon outside the range of any enemy radar, then stealth is going to be quite useless.

But you are going to have to spend a lot more on ISR systems, like stealthy UAVs that can fly around for many days at a time and something like the SR-72 for quick flybys to gather intelligence.

I can easily rebutt your narrative bit I will not because your post is off topic, false equivocation and will likely end up in a series of nonsensical conversation just to have a last say regardless of whether it is relevant or not. Can we please stay on topic.
 
Top