Crisis in the Ukraine

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
President Petro Poroshenko accused Russia of a "flagrant violation of international law" after the aid lorries entered Ukraine without permission.

Security chief Valentyn Nalyvaychenko described the convoy's entry as a "direct invasion" but added that no force would be used against it."
But these reports say nothing exactly about how the convoy got into the city...therefore any declarative statement about that is conjecture.

If anything they tend to up port my intention that the Ukrainians let it through...they SU they will not use force against it.

I never presented this contention as anything other than a possibility, and maintain that it is still is.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
But these reports say nothing exactly about how the convoy got into the city...therefore any declarative statement about that is conjecture.

If anything they tend to up port my intention that the Ukrainians let it through...they SU they will not use force against it.

I never presented this contention as anything other than a possibility, and maintain that it is still is.

i forgot where this report came from but apparently the convoy was escorted by militia units along the way. so it definitely was not that the ukr forces saw the convoy and simply let it through. remember they were told that these convoys are trojan horse so i know if i were a ukr officer i would not let em through without searching the trucks. but guess what? ukr army is saying they have not seen inside all the trucks. so putting the puzzle pieces together, the convoy most likely took a route that was not occupied by ukr forces.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
so now there are reports of partisan movement in kharkov impeding on ATO's logistic operations. also we are hearing rebels marching on mariupol. if either of these turn out to be true, then we are seeing an incredible reversal of development in the past two months.
 
Two major Polish servers I check informed that
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
had said yesterday (on a Ukrainian TV program) that only the Ukrainian Army could resolve the conflict, while
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
had said yesterday (on a German TV program) that only Diplomacy could resolve the conflict.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
Surely you don't expect Kiev to admit that there is no military solution possible?

Two major Polish servers I check informed that
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
had said yesterday (on a Ukrainian TV program) that only the Ukrainian Army could resolve the conflict, while
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
had said yesterday (on a German TV program) that only Diplomacy could resolve the conflict.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Not a lot of detail this morning but a few stories that stoke the interest.

I suppose the first off, must be the announcement by Russia of a new Aid convoy. You will not need to dig far to find news on this, but here is the RT link
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Of more immediate interest are the reports from Southern Donetsk, all the way from Ilovoisk almost all the way to Mariupol.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Its easy to become a propaganda victim, but I wonder if this the effects of the new reserves and captured equipment from the original cauldron being brought on line?

One thing I have no doubt that Novorossiya is getting from Russia is intelligence and equally no doubt plenty of it. This will give the militia leadership a better situational awareness than many second or third tier states could dream of having.

If the militia are sure that the territory behind the lines is weak and open, the yes it makes sense to take the initiative rather than play safe and just keep plugging the holes in the front line and generally playing by Kiev's rules.

I think also that another part of the calculation is that a lot of people are sitting on the fence in the region waiting to see which way the wind blows. If the militia can come on the offensive and take territory; esp a major city like Mariupol, then they may secure the extended new lines with many thousands of new volunteers from a population that has had the pleasure of life under the private forces of the new Kiev regime. Again good intelligence will help make that sort of decision and so maybe that particular tipping point has been reached.

So have large mechanised militia forces broken to the Southern rear of the Donetsk front? This is what we are being told and a heavy armoured strike to the rear of the Kiev forces could be devastating. More also is the disruption to C & C which is being reported almost down to the coast.

The BBC quote from Kiev about heavy fighting on the Coastal checkpoint near Mariupol is intriguing. Leaving aside the the customary claims of Russian Invasion (dressed as rebels), it does help develop the unfolding tale. Mariupol is supposed to the base for one or more of the punitive battalions of the National Guard and nearby is a major Air Defence site, so there are plenty of good strategic reasons to want to disrupt these areas.

Bearing in mind the established Ukrainian practice of blaming Russian Invaders in non Russian uniforms for all things bad that happen, I noticed this line from the Kiev Post link provided by pla101prc

Some of the Donbas men died when pro-Russian and Russian forces flying a Ukrainian flag deliberately fired on a vehicle carrying wounded, says Semenchenko.

I think we can all work out what actually happened and I think it tells us a lot about the state of Ukrainian forces in the ATO. It also rather reaffirms suspicions about who fired on those refuges last week in Lugansk.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
New Map and SITREP from Colonel Cassad

14dmr92.jpg


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


1. Indeed, the situation for the junta became aggravated In the area of ​​Novoazovsk and Mariupol. The militia forces that penetrated from the north and also those which crossed the border with the Russian Federation created an operational crisis in the area of Novoazovsk, which in itself implies a threat to Mariupol. The panic on the web resources of the junta is has certain basis. As we mentioned earlier, there are very few combat-capable units there, a hodgepodge of police, punitive troops, border guards and air defense personnel, clearly not something you can repel a serious militia offensive with.
For now the junta is saved by the fact that the militia forces here are not so large and they are not achieving decisive results yet, although the threat has already become more than serious. The thing is that by taking advantage of the advance of the reconnaissance and sabotage group of the militia to the south of the captured "Uspenka" checkpoint, the rebels also advanced through the border with Russia that was cleared from the junta, creating a local superiority in forces on a location that is critical for the junta. This is so to say the flip side of the junta decision to stop fighting for the border due to large-scale shelling of the junta positions near the border by the militia and "from the territory of the Russian Federation". Currently the junta faces a very unpleasant prospect - either it has to urgently find reserves for the new front that suddenly opened up or else it risks losing Novoazovsk and may face a real threat of losing of Mariupol. In general, this is a strike that is very unpleasant for the junta that complicates problems to the south of Donetsk.

2. The gap in the front south of Amvrosiyevka, which the junta recklessly didn't plug for a few days, paid off as expected. Not only is it that the militia used the gap to advance to Uspenka and Novoazovsk and created a threat for Mariupol. The junta military that were drawn into the battle for Ilovajsk spent their reserves, which resulted in a militia advance on their own communications and the threat of militia capturing Amvrosiyevka. A cauldron of its own kind emerged, which is already the 3rd in the south, although this one is more of a partial cauldron, because the militia intercepted a number of roadways to the south of the main forces of the group, but there's no speaking yet about a complete cutting of all communications because the militia actually wrap a larger force with a smaller one. In the next few days the junta will try to liquidate this intolerable for them situation, but if they fails to do this, then the first 2 southern cauldrons will be chump change compared to this one.

3. The cauldron under Dyakovo is still not eliminated, the encircled ones were given the standard terms, their leadership refuses to accept them for now. But overall, the elimination of the cauldron is just a matter of time and losses. Of course I would prefer the militia to get the materiel.

In general, what is happening is indeed a counter-offensive, albeit with insufficient forces. However, the blow was dealt at the time when the junta just suffered a defeat of its offensive on Donetsk and this strike immediately triggered a serious operational crisis for the junta. The very nature of the events in the Donbas is changing and now the argument is starting to shift from whether Novorossia will survive to what consequences will there be for the junta defeat in Donbass. Including the question of borders, from which the negotiations will begin. Perhaps, the first overtures will happen tomorrow in Minsk.

Sooner or later it looks as though they will need bigger maps.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Two major Polish servers I check informed that
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
had said yesterday (on a Ukrainian TV program) that only the Ukrainian Army could resolve the conflict, while
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
had said yesterday (on a German TV program) that only Diplomacy could resolve the conflict.

It seems to me these have been their respective positions throughout this year and throughout the crisis. After all, Merkel is not the mentor of this political current. Interesting that while maidan became euromaidan, the geopolitical stance of the grouping became somewhat opposed to that of the EU.

My own view is that both Europe and Russia can become stronger through cooperation with each other, and that Ukraine could (or could have?) become prosperous through this cooperation. This "military solution" only serves to drive a wedge between Europe and Russia, and perhaps explains why it is being so stubbornly pursued. The costs seem enourmous, and may even include the existence of Ukraine itself. From a "purely" Ukranian standpoint this seems illogical or at least counter-intuitive.

For Russia, splitting the Ukraine in half would be 95% bad news. The rump of Ukraine would be permanently hostile and NATO's bases would be extended into its territory. Meanwhile, the EU would be forced to accommodate the new sick child, and Germany would have to contend with yet another opponent of cooperation with Russia, perhaps within the EU.

The only benefit for Russia in this scenario would be partial and short term: those military industries in Zaporozhia, etc would be kept from NATO's hands.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
New Map and SITREP from Colonel Cassad

14dmr92.jpg


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




Sooner or later it looks as though they will need bigger maps.

col cossad's map looks different from what i saw on militarymap.info i guess you can say this one is relatively more conservative in its estimates. nevertheless, both depicts a catastrophic scenario for ukr army.

i have no doubt that even if the amrovsiika cauldron was legit and it ends up being liquidated ukraine will still be able to bounce back. but in conjuction with the potential loss of mariupol, i think this will raise questions about the futility of continuing this war. the government will no doubt come under increasing scrutiny on how the war is actually going. and that, in turn, will fulfill the premise of a political settlement i have alluded to earlier. when the public sees no end to the suffering, the government is in trouble.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top