F-22 Raptor Thread

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program Progress, Photos & Videos

And as time goes by she gets better. Ram improvements are part of block upgrades.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Re: US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program Progress, Photos & Videos

The F-22, unfortunately, was a flawed design in itself. The biggest problem with the F-22 is that the RAM coating on the F-22 was flawed; Lockmart apparently was concealing flaws in the RAM technology where it would be extremely easily corroded by normal, resulting in huge expenses and workhours spent maintaining the RAM layers on the F-22. It's since been fixed, but the F-22 has other flaws. For example, compared to other 5th generation craft, it is utterly inferior in infra-red sensors, since it simply doesn't have any, unlike the PAK-FA, which has an EOTS, or the J-20 or the F-35, both of which have EODAS systems. It means that it will have a lot more trouble passively detecting opponents, especially stealthy ones.

These are relatively minor points. F-22 is a solid aircraft mechanically speaking - good speed, maneuverability, acceleration. Avionics could be upgraded. Maintenance is a problem (mostly because of RAM ) , but IMHO even without RAM F-22 is a excellent airplane and cheaper version for export would be a great commercial success. Price would naturally go down with production. Compared with F-35A, I don't think there is anything F-22 could not do, and there are loot of things F-22 can do and F-35A cannot.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program Progress, Photos & Videos

@Jeff double check the F22 numbers I think you listing is a high by 8 units.
 
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Inst

Captain
Re: US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program Progress, Photos & Videos

IR-wise, look at this video, where the F-22 is easily apparent against the black backdrop of the cold sky. Reduced signature? Definitely, but there's still enough heat signature for the F-22 to be targetable.

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The issue with the F-22 RAM is that the F-22 had a target operating cost per hour, and it really overshot it. That's why the Pentagon opted to discontinue the F-22 and move to the F-35, for all the benefits of the airframe, the F-35 is far cheaper to operate.

With regards to avionics issues with the F-22, with the F-22, as a stealth platform it couldn't be easily retrofitted to support the EODAS suite employed on the F-35 and would require both new production and new engineering, drastically increasing the per unit costs of an F-22 Block II program.

With regards to the F-22 being really dominant over its fourth generation counterparts, I'm not really impressed by that information. It's been known for quite some time that the F-22 has been completely dominant over other fighters, namely through its high speed and BVR advantages. When things like the Eurofighter are allowed to engage the F-22 in WVR knifefights, the F-22's stealth advantages fade away and the F-22 takes as much as it dishes out.

The problem is that once the F-22 is fighting other stealth aircraft, what guarantee do you have now that the F-22 would be as dominant over, say, the J-20 or the PAK-FA as it is over their fourth generation counterparts? Even worse, according to reports from F-35 pilots, some of them who used to work in F-22s, many of them prefer the F-35 over the F-22 due to its superior avionics system. The lack of IR sensors on the F-22 means that the F-22 could lose to the F-35 due to the F-35 sighting the F-22 BVR through its IR system, while the F-22 can't sight the F-35 due to the F-35's frontal stealth.

===

The F-22, for what it is, was an extremely excellent aircraft for its time period. It combined super-maneuverability, stealth, and sensor fusion to make it decisively superior to its predecessor generation, and was available and effective for almost two decades before any near-peer competitors hit the scene. But in an environment flooded with VLO aircraft with IR sensors, the F-22 probably wouldn't have a significant advantage.
 
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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Yes Jeff but some lost :)

Now after the move from Holloman took place, F-22 fleet organisation :

Tyndall, 325 FW
43 FS, OCU F-22A x 31
95 FS, F-22A x 24

Langley, 1 FW
27 FS, F-22A x 24
94 FS, F-22A x 24

Elmendorf, 3 FW
90 FS, F-22A x 24
525 FS, F-22A x 24

ANG Hawai, Hickam 154 W :
199 FS, F-22A x 20

Nellis, 57 W
433 Weap Sq, 6? x F-22A
422 Test Ev Squ, 4 x F-22A

Edwards, 412 Test Wing
411 Fl Test Squ, 5 x F-22A
 
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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Yes Jeff but some lost :)

Now after the move from Holloman took place, F-22 fleet organisation :

Tyndall, 325 FW
43 FS, OCU F-22A x 31
95 FS, F-22A x 24

Langley, 1 FW
27 FS, F-22A x 24
94 FS, F-22A x 24

Elmendorf, 3 FW
90 FS, F-22A x 24
525 FS, F-22A x 24

ANG Hawai, Hickam 154 W :
199 FS, F-22A x 20

Nellis, 57 W
433 Weap Sq, 6? x F-22A
422 Test Ev Squ, 4 x F-22A

Edwards, 412 Test Wing
411 Fl Test Squ, 5 x F-22A

Good work in AFM March issue it says that there is 181 operational F22 Raptors so the break down somewhere is probably just slightly out somewhere I will try and find where it is I am sure it said the exact inventory list and Squadrons
 

Scyth

Junior Member
Re: US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program Progress, Photos & Videos

The F-22, unfortunately, was a flawed design in itself. The biggest problem with the F-22 is that the RAM coating on the F-22 was flawed; Lockmart apparently was concealing flaws in the RAM technology where it would be extremely easily corroded by normal, resulting in huge expenses and workhours spent maintaining the RAM layers on the F-22. It's since been fixed, but the F-22 has other flaws. For example, compared to other 5th generation craft, it is utterly inferior in infra-red sensors, since it simply doesn't have any, unlike the PAK-FA, which has an EOTS, or the J-20 or the F-35, both of which have EODAS systems. It means that it will have a lot more trouble passively detecting opponents, especially stealthy ones.

As far as the F-35 goes, it's also an inferior system due to its poor kinematics, but it is the best available solution at the moment. If different choices could have been made regarding the JSF program, they probably should have been made, but this late into the game it's far too late to develop an alternative 5th generation fighter. The United States will be saddled with the JSF system until it can develop 6th generation aircraft, to which, luckily, it is going to be the first to the party. Just... whatever you do, please don't let Lockmart touch your 6th generation projects this time around. Better yet, don't let Lockmart touch your 7th generation projects either.

IR-wise, look at this video, where the F-22 is easily apparent against the black backdrop of the cold sky. Reduced signature? Definitely, but there's still enough heat signature for the F-22 to be targetable.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The issue with the F-22 RAM is that the F-22 had a target operating cost per hour, and it really overshot it. That's why the Pentagon opted to discontinue the F-22 and move to the F-35, for all the benefits of the airframe, the F-35 is far cheaper to operate.

With regards to avionics issues with the F-22, with the F-22, as a stealth platform it couldn't be easily retrofitted to support the EODAS suite employed on the F-35 and would require both new production and new engineering, drastically increasing the per unit costs of an F-22 Block II program.

With regards to the F-22 being really dominant over its fourth generation counterparts, I'm not really impressed by that information. It's been known for quite some time that the F-22 has been completely dominant over other fighters, namely through its high speed and BVR advantages. When things like the Eurofighter are allowed to engage the F-22 in WVR knifefights, the F-22's stealth advantages fade away and the F-22 takes as much as it dishes out.

The problem is that once the F-22 is fighting other stealth aircraft, what guarantee do you have now that the F-22 would be as dominant over, say, the J-20 or the PAK-FA as it is over their fourth generation counterparts? Even worse, according to reports from F-35 pilots, some of them who used to work in F-22s, many of them prefer the F-35 over the F-22 due to its superior avionics system. The lack of IR sensors on the F-22 means that the F-22 could lose to the F-35 due to the F-35 sighting the F-22 BVR through its IR system, while the F-22 can't sight the F-35 due to the F-35's frontal stealth.

===

The F-22, for what it is, was an extremely excellent aircraft for its time period. It combined super-maneuverability, stealth, and sensor fusion to make it decisively superior to its predecessor generation, and was available and effective for almost two decades before any near-peer competitors hit the scene. But in an environment flooded with VLO aircraft with IR sensors, the F-22 probably wouldn't have a significant advantage.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one.

F-22
The RAM coating may require more maintenance than originally thought, but the newly designed coating for the F-35, which is designed to require less maintenance is applied to the F-22. I guess based on the lessons learned on not only the F-22, but also the B-2 and the F-117. So ongoing improvement is being made here.

The F-22 was originally planned to have an IR sensor, but this was canceled due to budget. I guess that if they want it installed, they can do so quite easily as the space for it should be available. Same applies for the side-looking radars that were deleted.

It should be noted that IR sensors, like those on the Typhoon, are supposedly only able to track a stealthy target from a distance of 50KM or so. This means that you are only missing a passive detection method for the close range.

The YouTube video that you showed of is showing a Raptor in (I suppose) very close range. I guess that you'd be able to track a Raptor with a radar at that specific range. This means that your argument "it can be detected here so it's flawed" is somewhat irrelevant as BVR combat, for which the F-22 is designed to fight, should be fought well beyond these ranges. If a fight with the Raptor gets to the WVR stage, both fighters (the Raptor and his advisary) will be detectable both on IR and radar. It is the fighter with (relatively better) stealth characteristics (both on radar and IR) should have a (slight) advantage as the missile seeker (with a smaller) radar or IR tracker should have more difficulty in tracking a Raptor vs. 4th generation fighter.

The F-22 in WVR fights may have lost to the Typhoon, Rafale or the Super Hornet, but we do not know the rules of those encounters. As you have stated, in the BVR arena, the Raptor dominates such that their training patners will only train with the Raptors if they do WVR as well, because they absolutely will not get anything usefull out of the training excersise. It may be therefore that during WVR mock-dogfights, the Raptor is handicapped as well. Also, I do not know whether those WVR kills in past excersises were made by Eurofighter's equipped with HOBS missiles. Furthermore, in real combat, if the Raptor was forced to go in with Sidewinders or guns, its stealthiness should allow it to get a favorable position to take a shot.

Kinematically, the F-22 should still rule against other 4th generation and perhaps the coming fifth generation fighters. I mean, the F-22 can sustain a turn rate of 28 degrees. I haven't found anything reliable on the internet suggesting that any 4th generation fighter can match that or the J-20/PAK-Fa. So unless proven otherwise, the Raptor is still king of the skies as it was designed to be. The J-20 and the PAK-Fa may do some things better and will surely perform better than any 4th generation fighter and should provide the Raptor with more challenge. However, the Raptor is evolving as well.



F-35
It is unclear for me to what extent the EODAS is capable of with regards to tracking a (stealthy) fighter-sized object. It may be better than a radar, or it may not. It is therefore unknown (to the us, the public, at least) which of the two (F-22 vs. F-35) will detect the other first as the JSF has a supposedly bigger frontal RCS.

It is argued that the EODAS would give the JSF the ability to launch missiles with LOAL modes, which means that maneuvering will be "irrelevant". Although, I will never consider maneuvering irrelevant, I think that HOBS missiles will mean that a quick pull into the target to maximize th Pk of a missile is more important than sustained energy fight. This means that instanenous turns/ pitch rates may become more important than sustained turn rates. The AOA limits of the JSF is the same as the (Super)Hornet. I assume the JSF should have to capability to quickly put the nose (near) on target and launch a HOBS missile. So, kinematically, it is inferior to a Raptor and perhaps only comparable to or slightly inferior to 4th generation fighters, its stealth should be able to provide the JSF pilot with a first BVR shot or a better position for a WVR shot and the EODAS may give an advantage or a mutual kill guarantee with a HOBS shot.

In conclusion, I think you assumed a too negative view of the American fighters. They will still be relevant for coming decades. Do not forget, the pilot, tactics and support assets have a great influence in a fight as well. F-15s shot down Mig-29s in a WVR fight, even though the latter should have had the better kinematic performance.
 
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Inst

Captain
Scyth, my point of view is that while the F-22 is highly effective against fourth and 4.5th gen aircraft, and I've already conceded as much above talking about its BVR capabilities against Eurofighters and other Eurocanards, it is not that good against 5th generation aircraft.

You are listing all the ways that the F-22 can be decisively superior to 4th and 4.5th gen fighters, and while we both agree that's true, it's not the point that I'm debating. The problem for the F-22, the way I see it, is whether or not it can be a cost-effective counter to Chinese and Russian 5th generation aircraft.

===

The F-35 achieves materials stealth by impregnating its composite airframe with RAMs, which is an approach that could not be easily transferred to the F-22. RAM paint on the surface of the F-35 can only be a complement to existing materials stealth on the F-35, and the F-22's RAM issues have already been fixed. The main issue with the F-22's RAM is that the increased maintenance hours reduce the operational availability of the F-22, as well as increasing the operating cost of the F-22.

With regards to the IR sensor on the F-22, I doubt the IR sensor could be so easily installed, as opening a port for the IR sensor would affect both the aircraft's balance and its RCS. I did a little bit more research on the F-22 subsequently, and I actually discovered that there is an IR sensor being built for the F-22, but it's being built into its MAW system, instead of having a separate aperture. This suggests two things, first, that it would be too cumbersome to re-enable the cancelled IRST on the F-22, and second, that the F-22 would have inferior infrared detection due to the small MAW aperture.

===

Regarding IR detection, the thing to note is that camera technology, which is closely aligned to infra-red technology, has seen major breakthroughs lately, with sensor sensitivity doubling roughly every 5 years. The figures you've provided for the Eurofighter PIRATE system are roughly accurate for 2007, when the system was first deployed, but by 2017 comparable systems will have achieved 100km range vs even a highly-IR reduced target like the F-22. And if the F-22 is supercruising, expect IR ranges to explode against the F-22 as the heat of supersonic friction against the skin will drastically increase the F-22's IR signature, no matter what techniques are used to reduce its visibility.

The F-22 with APG-77v1 has a known detection range of 200 km vs 0 dBsm targets. With -30 dBsm, like the J-20, its range is reduced to only 17%, while against -20 dBsm targets like the PAK-FA, you have 32% range, giving you 34 km and 64 km range against the J-20 and PAK-FA respectively, with the former figure suggesting that the J-20 will see the F-22 first even with only PIRATE-level technology.

This roughly means that the F-22 would be outclassed by the J-20 and PAK-FA in BVR combat, because even though the F-22 is highly stealthy to radar, its inferior IRST aperture means that the J-20 and PAK-FA would effectively have a higher detection range than the F-22 and would be seen first by opposing aircraft.

About WVR combat, while it's up in the air as to whether or not the J-20 would be more maneuverable than the F-22, the PAK-FA would almost certainly outperform the F-22 in WVR combat. The PAK-FA is lighter and consequently has lower wing-loading and a higher thrust-to-weight ratio. It also uses LEVCONs to assist in high AOA stability functions, as well as having spread apart engines to enhance roll and yaw authority for its 3D TVC system.
 

Inst

Captain
About the EODAS on the F-35, the F-35 has both an EODAS and an IRST targeter underneath its nose. The EODAS is designed to work mainly for WVR engagements, so it's only useful for negating the F-22's superior maneuverability, but the IRST can take on the same advantages as the J-20.

That could possibly be the reason why the F-35 wasn't designed for supercruise, unlike the F-22 and the J-20; if the future of aerial BVR warfare is IRST-based, with radars being neutralized by a combination of stealth and jamming, supercruising is suicide because of the way it ramps up your IR signature. The supercruisers, then, would only be able to supercruise as a way to get into the combat zone, but afterwards they'd need to decelerate to reduce IR signatures to avoid getting killed at long-range.
 
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