J-15 carrier-borne fighter thread

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
The Su-33 provides massive benefits in logistics with the PLAs existing air fleet of flankers.
The Su-33 also has much superior range and payload compare to the Mig-29K, and unfortunately the PLA has no middle size between the naval flanker and fulcrum to choose from: ie, nothing F-18E or F-14 sized.

However I think the size of the Su-33 is one of the main benefits. While it is a big plane and will limit the numbers a carrier can embark, it's sheer range and endurance is very impressive. IMO the main drawback of carrier based aircraft is their reliance on land based tankers for longer range missions. The J-15 may be able to conduct some of those longer range missions with only internal fuel and/or limited buddy refuelling.


Also, there is already a flanker thread where J-15 discussion happens, I'm not sure if there is need for another.

Thanks Blitzo..I may move some of those recent J-15 post to this thread...

Enywho..large aircraft on an CV are laborious to handle. Time consuming to move about. And they eat up so much space. In my experience smaller is better on a CV.

You make some very valid points as far as range and endurance is concerned. The PLAN needs to have a tanker available for carrier borne operations.
 

hlcc

Junior Member
Another thing is going with mig29k means having to rely Russian weapons and unable to use the latest chinese ashm, aam etc
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Others have already pointed out the inherent advantages a big airplane will have over a smaller one, I would just like to add that even though the J15 may be bigger than optimal for the Liaoning, the Chinese can, and will design their future carriers with the size of the J15 in mind, so it would be less of an issue.

One also has to consider the primary role the PLAN sees its carriers serving in the near to medium term, and that is fleet air defence and anti shipping strike.

For both those roles, bigger is better.

On CAP, a J15 can stay on station longer, carry more weapons, and have a bigger radar and more powerful avionics than a medium sized plane. The bigger fuel reserves is key, as it gives the J15 the luxury of punching in afterburners more often, and for longer than a smaller bird. That can be a huge advantage both in terms of getting to targets faster, ie, before they have a chance to launch at your surface fleet; and also in air combat itself, since the J15 pilot won't have to worry about whether or not he will have enough fuel to get home if he kicks in afterburners.

For anti-shipping, a bigger bird can carry heavier missiles further, and can allow you to strike at an enemy task group with near impunity if your opponent simply doesn't have planes with the legs to launch strike missions against you from such a range.

The only missions where more smaller birds would be superior would be in the CAS or other similar land attack roles, where sortie rate and number of targets hit per day matters. But since China has little to no aspirations to go colonising other lands no matter what Fox News might say, that's really not much of a drawback as far as the PLAN is concerned. And in the long term, I see such missions being farmed off to naval UCAVs anyways, so no need to baggage a new manned fighter with that requirement in this day in age I say.

In the long term, I see the PLAN introducing a stealth 5th gen naval fighter onto their carriers, either in the form of a naval J20, or J31, or maybe even something completely new that we haven't even heard of yet. In any case, this new carrier 5th gen will take over the CAP and air superiority roles from the J15, and the J15 itself can more into the strike and support roles, such as EW, tanker, forward drone controller, or any role where stealth is either not needed, or simply incompatible. The key is that its size gives it growth potential that a smaller airframe simply cannot hope to match.

So I see the J15 as in effect future proof, which is why it is a great choice. A naval J10B might be better for the Liaoning, but it will be obsolete as soon as something like the J31 and naval strike drones become operational, and will not have the flexibility to move into other roles as easily like the J15.

A Mig29K purchase would be even worse, since with something like the J10B, at least you have the option of adapting it to other roles if you really really wanted to, but with a purchased foreign aircraft, you'd be lucky to even be allowed to integrate your own weapons onto it.

So, to sum up, in my view, for someone like China at least:

- the Mig29K makes sense only in the short term, the benefits are you get everything up and running a year or two earlier. But in the medium to long term, it is likely to become more of a liability than an asset. Taking up deck space that could be used to house something far more capable (naval 5th gen) or useful (tanker/EW/drone controller J15). What more, you have the added logistical and operational costs and headaches of needing another set of foreign parts, and more problematically, weapons, that the rest of your air wing cannot use.

- a naval J10B would make sense in the medium term, giving you a more flexible, and capable, in certain fields, platform than the J15. But like the Mig29k, it will quickly become obsolete. A carrier J10B might have made sense if development work on it started 5, 10 years ago. But to start work on it now would not make much sense when the J31 is already flying, and unlike SAC, who's sole focus is on the Flanker family, I think CAC has too many, higher priority projects taking up the bulk of its resources that it won't be able to rush a carrier J10B as fast as SAC did with the J15. Just look at how long the J10B itself has taken.

Opting for the J15 probably has set the Liaoning back a year or two at least, but Chinese planners tend to focus on the big picture, and have plans and strategies that come may not come to fruition for decades. So for them, loosing a year or two in the short term means very little if there are significant gains to be had from that decision, 10, 15, 20 years down the line.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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The only missions where more smaller birds would be superior would be in the CAS or other similar land attack roles, where sortie rate and number of targets hit per day matters. But since China has little to no aspirations to go colonising other lands no matter what Fox News might say, that's really not much of a drawback as far as the PLAN is concerned. And in the long term, I see such missions being farmed off to naval UCAVs anyways, so no need to baggage a new manned fighter with that requirement in this day in age I say.


Larger aircraft might be technically superior to smaller aircraft at CAS on the basis of larger planes having greater endurance, greater payload, and range. However I'm not sure how say, a carrier stocked with multirole Su-33s would compare to the same carrier stocked to the brim with multriole Mig-29Ks.
I believe sortie rate is less important for CAS than the compounded "time/presence on station," so it becomes a balance between smaller but more aircraft, with each aircraft having less time on station but having more aircraft to fly over it with, or larger but less aircraft, which is naturally just vice versa.
Range may or may not come into CAS, but I'd believe that it wouldn't, simply on the basis that CAS is only requested once air superiority and control of the air is wrested (meaning any threats to the CAS bird's own carrier would probably be mitigated, allowing the CV in question to orbit in closer waters).

(It would be interesting if we coudl simulate time on station for a carrier laden with naval flankers versus naval fulcrums at specific distances between the carrier and the theater of conflict in question.)


However, range is completely essential if you are conducting strike missions against land targets defended by a capable military (I'm not sure if you include this in "other similar land attack roles"), because the range of your strike aircraft dictates how far away from the enemy you can park your carrier. This of course, is the big hoopla about the AShBM, because it's meant to push carriers further from China's shore, making meaningful strike missions by USN airwings less realistic at such ranges.


Basically, I agree that carrier based CAS missions against low intensity foes might be better served by smaller aircraft, but carrier based strike missions against high intensity foes are better done by larger aircraft.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
In fact, F-14 was throwed out of CV not because of its sheer size by because of cutting down maintenance and logistic cost.
The mechanical steering of F-14 wing is way too expensive to maintain.

I don't care if the F-14 Tomcat was a maintenance queen, IMO she was the prettiest bird that the US Navy had ever possess. It's like you dated and slept with a beauty queen but now married and had to settle down with your current wife (F-18) which is good, but deep down it's no comparison. Hehehe....giggity.:eek::p
 

Franklin

Captain
Its right for China to build her own naval based fighters instead of buying them from abroad. Buying foreign planes will take a significant chunk of your independence away. Building a domestic plane will help push the aviation industry into new territories.

The debate between Flankers vs Fulcrums is a debate between having a bigger air wing vs. a air wing with greater range.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
J-15 Test Documentation (?)

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This article agrees exactly with the notion that the plane is slated for AESA and will get such upgrades very quickly, and also that the aircraft is a long-term solution for the PLAN with emphasis on later carriers.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
This article agrees exactly with the notion that the plane is slated for AESA and will get such upgrades very quickly, and also that the aircraft is a long-term solution for the PLAN with emphasis on later carriers.

Is it really necessary to quote the entire passage and the badly translated part too for a two line reply?


And A Man, you seem fluent in mandarin and your english doesn't seem terrible, can't you provide a grammatically correct summary instead of resorting to google?


As for the write up itself, there's no particular reason to think it is credible, is there?
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Biggest drawback of J-15/Liaoning combination is a fact that J-15 would not be able to use its full payload when taking-off from Liaoning . J-15 originates from Su-33 which was not designed as a naval strike fighter . Soviets were concerned only with air defense and PLAN wants multirole platform .
Considering Mig-29K , it looks like this plane could take-off with decent payload from Vikramaditya . As Liaoning has longer deck , purely technically speaking Mig-29K/Liaoning combination would be almost perfect (medium sized carrier with medium sized plane) .

On the other hand , I understand that China doesn't want to depend on any other country , so they got what they could and modified according to their own needs . But , to use full potential of J-15 , next Chinese carrier would have to have longer deck , or be fitted with catapults (J-15 would have to be modified in this case ) .
 
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