East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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port_08

Junior Member
From news, it seem there are more fighter jets flying all over the ADIZ there now. Any planes flying over there better be careful less it be shot down by some mistakes.

There could be cases like the Hainan Island incident that cost China one of her pilot or the Korean airliner shot down over trespassing the Soviet Union airspace.

Giving the probability of all these activities, something bound to happen. High chances somewhere a mistake will happen. Radar locked on or whatever.
 

port_08

Junior Member
You assume the PLAAF will use force way outside Chinese territory. I assume they won't and expect they will hold fire for as long as reasonably possible. Even in a NFZ which this ADIZ is not, aircrafts don't usually get shot immediately if there is reason to believe that the aircraft may have technical problems.

Missile can be fired miles away without visual contact. So how can anyone identify it is commercial airplane like JAL?? The Japanese government already ask the JAL pilot not to respond to PLA hailing them, not to maintain 2 way communication.

So, how can PLA pilot identify the JAL is not a US/Japan spy plane??? Without visual contact, they just appear as a blob in the radar only and not knowing why this blob appear there in the first place. There is no flight plan given to China MOD, so they won't know....they can take it as excuse to shoot down a hostile plane since legally, they can view them as threat base on their national legal code. As any Tom Dick and Harry can have their own ADIZ anyway.

Japan government is asking their airliners to take the risk. I'm sure the passenger insurance can be increase to cover the cost in case anything bad happen in forceseeable future..
 

port_08

Junior Member
Using force against non-attacking aircraft in international airspace is clear breach of international law . Identification , including flying alongside , is not .

If you don't have jurisdiction , it is illegal to use force except when attacked . It is very simple rule .

Japan and US already scramble jets, and China also scramble jets. So its pretty crowded, we don't know who's flying into the zone as nobody intent to maintain communication anyway.

Japan already explicit asking their pilots attacking or non-attacking to ignore China, so nobody talks up there in the sky. The only way to talk up there probably need to show hand signal, they have to fly close to each other....within gun range. May be too close for comfort, to give peace sign or what...
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
....they can take it as excuse to shoot down a hostile plane since legally, they can view them as threat base on their national legal code.

Giving the probability of all these activities, something bound to happen. High chances somewhere a mistake will happen. Radar locked on or whatever.
Port-08, you are new here. You should read our rules for posting.

DO NOT MAKE INFLAMMATORY COMMENTS LIKE THIS, FOCUS ON THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF THE ADIZ

The fact is, the things you mention are NOT bound to happen. The incidents you cite are three incidents (and there may be a few more) out of literally tens of thousands of flights that go on through ADIZ zones each year. So the probability is actually very, very low.

It is most likely that the PRC will use the zone, not as a inflammatory, aggressive measure to attack anyone, but as a defensive measure to identify aircraft that are flying in an aggressive flight profile towards the Chinese mainland, and particularly towards any sensitive Chinese location.

That's what an ADIZ is for. If aircraft are flying along a normal civilian air liner corridor and stick to it, there is likely to be no problem. If an aircraft is in trouble, it will be broadcasting anyway.

So again, please, everyone, no inflammatory comments. Stop beating the war drums.

Thanks
 
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port_08

Junior Member
.... As for international law , part of it is free navigation . You cannot have that if one country intercepts aircraft from other countries .

If you see it in the past, when China send drones into the area, Japan threaten to shoot it down over the ADIZ airspace. So by your logic above, Japan cannot intercept as it is part of "free" navigation...you cannot have one country intercept aircraft from other countries right?

Now, what I see here is when China set up this ADIZ, she automatically become legally can sent her fighters plane already. So indirectly it is sort of a small victory for their airforce. So now, legally under their ADIZ context, they can now sent fighters jets flying all over the place under pretext of "monitoring" their ADIZ. So...in overnight it become legally or in media context the "new normal". The situation changes.

As you read the news headline, "China scramble fighter jets to monitor their ADIZ" bla bla bla....
 

port_08

Junior Member
Port-08, you are new here. You should read our rules for posting.

DO NOT MAKE INFLAMMATORY COMMENTS LIKE THIS, FOCUS ON THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF THE ADIZ

The fact is, the things you mention are NOT bound to happen. The incidents you cite are three incidents (and there may be a few more) out of literally tens of thousands of flights that go on through ADIZ zones each year. So the probability is actually very, very low.

It is most likely that the PRC will use the zone, not as a inflammatory, aggressive measure to attack anyone, but as a defensive measure to identify aircraft that are flying in an aggressive flight profile towards the Chinese mainland, and particularly towards any sensate Chinese location.

That's what an ADIZ is for. If aircraft are flying along a normal civilian air liner corridor and stick to it, there is likely to be no problem. If an aircraft is in trouble, it will be broadcasting anyway.

So again, please, everyone, no inflammatory comments. Stop beating the war drums.

Thanks

Ok noted. Of course I don't like war to happen between China or Japan, but with each side doesn't want to back down, high chance mistake happen. What I said, are possibility things that can happen. Media already potraying and playing the war drum, everyday we read the media, it sounds like drum being beaten all the times. Politically, I think China is trying to force Japan into negotiation, to admit a dispute and it seem Japan ego is blocking the way for negotiation. I'm sure the problem here is oversize ego from both Japan and China.
 

xiabonan

Junior Member
Port-08, you are new here. You should read our rules for posting.

DO NOT MAKE INFLAMMATORY COMMENTS LIKE THIS, FOCUS ON THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF THE ADIZ

The fact is, the things you mention are NOT bound to happen. The incidents you cite are three incidents (and there may be a few more) out of literally tens of thousands of flights that go on through ADIZ zones each year. So the probability is actually very, very low.

It is most likely that the PRC will use the zone, not as a inflammatory, aggressive measure to attack anyone, but as a defensive measure to identify aircraft that are flying in an aggressive flight profile towards the Chinese mainland, and particularly towards any sensate Chinese location.

That's what an ADIZ is for. If aircraft are flying along a normal civilian air liner corridor and stick to it, there is likely to be no problem. If an aircraft is in trouble, it will be broadcasting anyway.

So again, please, everyone, no inflammatory comments. Stop beating the war drums.

Thanks

Exactly what I wanted to say. Good job Jeff! By the way I do think that those events mentioned were no 'incident. These were done on purpose.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Media already potraying and playing the war drum, everyday we read the media, it sounds like drum being beaten all the times. Politically, I think China is trying to force Japan into negotiation, to admit a dispute and it seem Japan ego is blocking the way for negotiation.

What the media does should have no impact on what we do and post here in SD, other than to post pertinent media sources and discuss the technical merits of it. Such stories can be linked, but we can let them speak for themselves and not beat the war drum ourselves.

Also, SD is not a political forum. Some is unavoidable, but SD takes a very hard line on things devolving into a political discussion generally. It is a military forum.

So, let's try and keep focused on the technical aspects of this as they relate to the military.

For example...the ranges involved for the ADIZ and how the PRC could best patrol it with AWACS and fighters. How far away is Japan and its air assets, and what constraints does that place...or with the US.

What are the specific rules and normal operations of ADIZs, etc., etc.

Thanks.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Ok noted. Of course I don't like war to happen between China or Japan, but with each side doesn't want to back down, high chance mistake happen. What I said, are possibility things that can happen. Media already potraying and playing the war drum, everyday we read the media, it sounds like drum being beaten all the times. Politically, I think China is trying to force Japan into negotiation, to admit a dispute and it seem Japan ego is blocking the way for negotiation. I'm sure the problem here is oversize ego from both Japan and China.

Good reply I think that is actually what is going to happen China will gradually tighten the screw until Japan admit there is a dispute and start negotiating with China It could get out of hand nobody know. Unforeseen incident can't happen. Let pray that peoples have sanity on both sides of the issues

BEIJING (AP) — China said it sent warplanes into its newly declared maritime air defense zone days after the U.S., South Korea and Japan all sent flights through the airspace in broadening defiance of rules Beijing says it has imposed over the East China Sea.

China's air force on Thursday sent several fighter jets and an early warning aircraft on normal air patrols in the zone, the Xinhua agency reported, citing air force spokesman Shen Jinke.

The report did not specify exactly when the flights were sent or whether they had encountered foreign military aircraft. The United States, Japan and South Korea have said they have sent military or coast guard flights through the zone without encountering any Chinese response since Beijing announced its creation last week.

Shen described Thursday's flights as "a defensive measure and in line with international common practices." He said China's air force would remain on high alert and will take measures to protect the country's airspace. Chinese officials have said commercial flights are unaffected by the new rules.

While China's surprise announcement last week announcing the zone initially raised some tensions in the region, analysts say Beijing's motive is not to trigger an aerial confrontation but is a more long-term strategy to solidify claims to disputed territory by simply marking the area as its own.

China's lack of efforts to stop the foreign flights — including two U.S. B-52s that flew through the zone on Tuesday — has been an embarrassment for Beijing. Even some Chinese state media outlets suggested Thursday that Beijing may have mishandled the episodes.

"Beijing needs to reform its information release mechanism to win the psychological battles waged by Washington and Tokyo," the Global Times, a nationalist tabloid published by the Communist Party's flagship People's Daily, said in an editorial.

Without prior notice, Beijing began demanding Saturday that passing aircraft identify themselves and accept Chinese instructions or face consequences in an East China Sea zone that overlaps a similar air defense identification zone overseen by Japan since 1969 and initially part of one set up by the U.S. military.

But when tested just days later by U.S. B-52 flights — with Washington saying it made no effort to comply with China's rules, and would not do so in the future — Beijing merely noted, belatedly, that it had seen the flights and taken no further action.

South Korea's military said Thursday its planes flew through the zone this week without informing China and with no apparent interference. Japan also said its planes have been continuing to fly through it after the Chinese announcement, while the Philippines, locked in an increasingly bitter dispute with Beijing over South China Sea islands, said it also was rejecting China's declaration.

Analysts question China's technical ability to enforce the zone due to a shortage of early warning radar aircraft and in-flight refueling capability. However, many believe that China has a long-term plan to win recognition for the zone with a gradual ratcheting-up of warnings and possibly also eventual enforcement action.

"With regard to activity within the zone, nothing will happen — for a while," said June Teufel Dreyer, a China expert at the University of Miami. "Then the zone will become gradually enforced more strictly. The Japanese will continue to protest, but not much more, to challenge it."

That may wear down Japan and effectively change the status quo, she said.

The zone covers an area spanning about 1,000 kilometers (620 miles) from north to south, above international waters separating China, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan. Alliance partners the U.S. and Japan together have hundreds of military aircraft in the immediate vicinity.

Japanese commercial flights have continued to pass through the zone, en route to destinations including Taiwan, Vietnam and Hong Kong. They initially had notified Chinese authorities of their flights as requested, until early this week, when the Japanese government urged them to stop doing so.

The zone is seen primarily as China's latest bid to bolster its claim over a string of uninhabited Japanese-controlled islands in the East China Sea — known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China. Beijing has been ratcheting up its sovereignty claims since Tokyo's nationalization of the islands last year.

The announcement comes an awkward time. Although Beijing's ties with Tokyo are at rock bottom, it was building good will and mutual trust with Washington following a pair of successful meetings between President Barack Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping. However, the zone feud now threatens to overshadow both the visit by Vice President Joe Biden to Beijing next week and one by Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop expected before the end of the year.

China will continue piling the pressure on Tokyo until it reverses the decision to nationalize the islands, concedes they are in dispute, and opens up negotiations with Beijing, said Shen Dingli, a regional security expert and director of the Center for American Studies at Shanghai's Fudan University.

"China has no choice but to take counter measures," Shen said. "If Japan continues to reject admitting the disputes, it's most likely that China will take further measures."
 
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