East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[Blitzo]

Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

US, Japan and Republic of Korea already showed that they don't care whether there is Chinese ADIZ or not.

Good for them, and they can continue to operate as they want.
But China now has the pretext to do more interceptions under the banner of its ADIZ. Without an ADIZ they'd all kick up a fuss if China did so.

I don't see what you're adding to the discussion.

Showing off isn't a strategy. It's PR stunt. If ROK will extend it's ADIZ over Ieodo this will mean a 'major victory for South Korea'?

China's never claimed there was no territorial dispute over Ieodo, they have never tried to claim undisputed sovereignty.

Japan conversely has tried to do that with the diaoyu islands. And ADIZ is able to challenge their claim of undisputed sovereignty so it is a major victory, and it has been China's goal for the last few years in case you haven't noticed.

 

[Scyth]

Your analogy with the police is wrong , because "police" in this case has no jurisdiction . Imagine American police trying to impose law in China , or vice versa . As for international law , part of it is free navigation . You cannot have that if one country intercepts aircraft from other countries .

Although flawed it's still usable. They, the PLAAF, ain't enforcing Chinese jurisdiction above the ADIZ. The Chinese is not claiming their ADIZ as Chinese territory and jurisdiction.

 

[Blitzo]

Your analogy with the police is wrong , because "police" in this case has no jurisdiction . Imagine American police trying to impose law in China , or vice versa . As for international law , part of it is free navigation . You cannot have that if one country intercepts aircraft from other countries .

The police analogy is wrong, but the fact remains that an ADIZ gives a nation pretext for setting down some rules which other aircraft should abide by. They can choose not to abide those rules, there's nothing binding them to it. If so, then those aircraft will be responded to varying degrees of force from simply interception, or forced landing, or use of deadly force, depending on the nature of the situation.


An ADIZ doesn't really give a nation legal right for other nation's aircraft to follow its bidding, but the international norm is that it gives the nation a normative pretext to respond to threats at longer distance and greater vigor.



As for free navigation -- again an ADIZ isn't a NFZ, it only means noncompliant aircraft will be IDed, intercepted and possibly endure use of force. These are the same rules for most nation's ADIZ's, and despite the claims of "we only impose our ADIZ rules on aircraft intending to enter our territory," we all know in practice nations intercept other aircraft regardless of real trajectory.

Furthermore, considering China's ADIZ is so busy, it would actually be safer and more logical for commercial airlines to give China their flightplans, unless they want to frighten their passengers with a few J-11s checking out the sides.
And given the fact that most airliners have turned in their flight plans, it seems most recognize the common sense behind the decision.



It's pretty funny, there seems to be two main derisive responses to China's ADIZ. One extreme is that it is merely a meaningless political gesture that China cannot enforce even if it wanted to, and it doesn't change anything at all. The other extreme is that it's a restriction on freedom of navigation and is effectively the devil incarnate.
Heh.

 

[xiabonan]

The PLAAF spokesperson said today that "29th Nov, the PLAAF organized emergency take-off for the J10 and J11, identified and ascertained two batches of total two American P3 and EP-3 surveillance aircrafts, and 7 batches of total 10 Japanese E-767, P3 and F15. " He also mentioned that "the PLAAF have worked with the PLANAF to earnestly carry out duties over the Ease China Sea ADIZ and ensured monitoring and identification of foreign aircrafts entering the ADIZ."

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[thunderchief]

The police analogy is wrong, but the fact remains that an ADIZ gives a nation pretext for setting down some rules which other aircraft should abide by. They can choose not to abide those rules, there's nothing binding them to it. If so, then those aircraft will be responded to varying degrees of force from simply interception, or forced landing, or use of deadly force, depending on the nature of the situation.

Using force against non-attacking aircraft in international airspace is clear breach of international law . Identification , including flying alongside , is not .

Although flawed it's still usable. They, the PLAAF, ain't enforcing Chinese jurisdiction above the ADIZ. The Chinese is not claiming their ADIZ as Chinese territory and jurisdiction.

If you don't have jurisdiction , it is illegal to use force except when attacked . It is very simple rule .

 

[xiabonan]

[video]http://you.video.sina.com.cn/api/sinawebApi/outplayrefer.php/vid=120495802_1_aR23GnY7XjTK+l1lHz2stqkM7KQNt6nkny nt71+iJgxZVAmMborfO4kK4SvWBMZH+WxP/s.swf[/video]

Video of PLAAF patrolling the ADIZ.

Note that those J11B/BS are ones using WS10 engines.

 

[LesAdieux]

The PLAAF spokesperson said today that "29th Nov, the PLAAF organized emergency take-off for the J10 and J11, identified and ascertained two batches of total two American P3 and EP-3 surveillance aircrafts, and 7 batches of total 10 Japanese E-767, P3 and F15. " He also mentioned that "the PLAAF have worked with the PLANAF to earnestly carry out duties over the Ease China Sea ADIZ and ensured monitoring and identification of foreign aircrafts entering the ADIZ."

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ADIZ day 2, PLAAF checked and identified america and jap planes, good job!
io8

 

[Scyth]

Using force against non-attacking aircraft in international airspace is clear breach of international law . Identification , including flying alongside , is not .



If you don't have jurisdiction , it is illegal to use force except when attacked . It is very simple rule .

You assume the PLAAF will use force way outside Chinese territory. I assume they won't and expect they will hold fire for as long as reasonably possible. Even in a NFZ which this ADIZ is not, aircrafts don't usually get shot immediately if there is reason to believe that the aircraft may have technical problems.

 

[siegecrossbow]

[video]http://you.video.sina.com.cn/api/sinawebApi/outplayrefer.php/vid=120495802_1_aR23GnY7XjTK+l1lHz2stqkM7KQNt6nkny nt71+iJgxZVAmMborfO4kK4SvWBMZH+WxP/s.swf[/video]

Video of PLAAF patrolling the ADIZ.

Note that those J11B/BS are ones using WS10 engines.

Not all of the Flankers are using Taihang engines. Also, one of the video images seems to be irrelevant (taken from an earlier exercise), but that is expected of CCTV.

How did the Flankers identify the American/Japanese planes? I would assume visually or maybe by radio transmissions? But the latter is unlikely given how both the Americans and Japanese insisted that they refused to identify themselves in the ADIZ. If they visually identified the American/Japanese jets, are they going to release photos/videos of that at one point?

 

[xiabonan]

Not all of the Flankers are using Taihang engines. Also, one of the video images seems to be irrelevant (taken from an earlier exercise), but that is expected of CCTV.

How did the Flankers identify the American/Japanese planes? I would assume visually or maybe by radio transmissions? But the latter is unlikely given how both the Americans and Japanese insisted that they refused to identify themselves in the ADIZ. If they visually identified the American/Japanese jets, are they going to release photos/videos of that at one point?

Most of the J 11 and J11BS are using Taihang except for the first batch of about 20-30 that uses AL31 engines.

I would expect to see photos and videos eventually. Maybe not now though.