East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[Cheng]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

I've briefly skimmed through the FAA's ADIZ requirements and they aren't that different.

There is some confusion as to whether civilian flights will be impacted. I think they require flight plans, but China has also said international flights will be unaffected.


So this will really only impact military flights.


Now Jeff, let's be frank here. While the Chinese ADIZ does give China pretext for flying over the disputed islands, you can also understand why China needs an ADIZ, surely?

I am sure you are familiar with US and Japan's ADIZ. We know why ADIZ's exist. Considering bombers and fighters can fly very fast and strike a nation's soil with little warning, an ADIZ gives forewarning and the right of a nation to check any suspicious aircraft that may pose a threat to national security.
That is why the US intercepts Russian Bears.

China faces one of the most formidable militaries in the world with the most capable air forces in the world -- US air force and US navy -- right on its doorstep. Isn't it a military sensibility to have an ADIZ of its own?

The ADIZ impacts US military operations because obviously the US isn't going to inform the Chinese of their secretive military training flights and routines with a transponder and flight plans. And the US can choose not to abide by those rules, that's no problem. China will simply send aircraft to intercept and monitor them if they get too close. Again, that's an international norm and a militarily logical move, yes?

Anyway here's an article and a blog post about the ADIZ which I think sheds some light on the matter with a rather candid view.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

And the blog post from the same author expounding on some topics:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

On the map, next to California, does the US ADIZ extend into Mexico?

 

[Blitzo]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

.. Um Jeff, why did you edit my post #10? I think you meant to reply to my post but edited in mistake?


I'll leave my post edited for the moment, because the rules say we can't edit posts that have been edited by moderators

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

Now Jeff, let's be frank here. While the Chinese ADIZ does give China pretext for flying over the disputed islands, you can also understand why China needs an ADIZ, surely?

Of course I do, that's why I said in my last post:

I expect that if the PRC uses the ADIZ as a "buffer" zone, to identify any aircraft flying an agressive flight path aimed at the Chinese mainland, and then only intercepts those aircraft at a pre-determined distance well within the zone, that things will stay calm.

If the PRC uses the US B-52 flights, and their non-interference with those flights, to punctuate the basic self-defense nature of the Zone, in keeping with other similar zones like the US one near Alaska, then I expect there will not be a problem.

And I believe we should focus on that type of thing in the forum too. If we avoid rancor, and nationalistic fervor such as saying on one side to agressively enforece the ADIZ on one side and shoot down anyone who violates it, and to use military force to "break" the ADIZ on the other, then we in SD will be able to stay above the fray.

Otherwise we will not...and threads will get closed and members will get suspensions over it...which I believe we can avoid.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

Of course I do, that's why I said in my last post:



If the PRC uses the US B-52 flights, and their non-interference with those flights, to punctuate the basic self-defense nature of the Zone, in keeping with other similar zones like the US one near Alaska, then I expect there will not be a problem.

And I believe we should focus on that type of thing in the forum too. If we avoid rancor, and nationalistic fervor such as saying on one side to agressively enforece the ADIZ on one side and shoot down anyone who violates it, and to use military force to "break" the ADIZ on the other, then we in SD will be able to stay above the fray.

Otherwise we will not...and threads will get closed and members will get suspensions over it...which I believe we can avoid.

It's great that we're in agreement.

I feel like we should just reiterate some of the points to make sure the discussion, if it continues, agrees to these facts:

1: ADIZ is not NFZ
2: Chinese ADIZ doesn't restrict military flights from foreign aircraft, and if foreign military aircraft choose not to activate transponders or file flight plans that is their right and China may respond with interceptions (which is also China's right)
3: Chinese ADIZ doesn't impact (or at least is not meant to) impact international civilian flights

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

This gives the PRC a way to more gracefully back down from any stringent enforcement of the ADIZ much more easily than say had the Japanese been the first to challenege it in this way.

I don't understand.

I mean that if the Japanese had challenged the ADIZ first, the Chinese would have a very difficult time, given the dispute, or not taking much more aggressive action and tensions and confrontation would have gone up.

But, since the US Air Force challenged it, in the same place, the Chinese have a much more graceful way of stepping away from a confrontational posture to the more defensive posture that the ADIZ can provide.

I don't think anyone sees the PLAAF ADIZ as a challenge to normal air navigation over open seas, no more than the Japanese ADIZ over the pacific restricts PLAAF aircraft from entering it and operating over the first island chain.

The Japanese use their ADIZ to defend against offensive flight postures towards their territory.

The issue with the ADIZ is not that it makes sense as a defensive tool against offensive flight postures targeting the Chinese mainland. I do not believe anyone would have a problem with that.

However, it is also clearly aimed at the disputed islands and changese the status qou that has existed for the Japanese for over 30 years where their military aircraft regularly fly over those silands to help them administer it as they have done heretofore.

The Japanese are not going to give the PRC flight plans or transponder info for their military flights over those islands.

That's the hiccup. I hope the PRC does not press that issue and attempt to establish the AWACS and military patrols it would take to prevent it. The US, in its actions with military aircraft over the precise same islands, has given the PRC a chance to step away from that issue. I hope they take it.

Again, I want to reiterate that the ADIZ is not a NFZ.

Oh yes, I understand that perfectly well.

 

[chuck731]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

Actually, the US does not require any foreign plane, military or civilian, scheduled or otherwise, to do anything when they traverse American ADIZ, unless they actually enter American territorial air space.

So the US didn't require foreign planes to do this or else the US would do that. The US didn't posture eventhough it had full capacity to back up the posture. The US didn't bluff. It didn't even talk, over its ADIZ.

China did require foreign planes to do this or else China would do that. China did not back this up by doing that when foreign planes failed to do this. So it definitely seemed like an empty bluff.

Anytime when a major power bluffs to other major powers, and have its bluff called, it's a serious set back that effects its credibility and short term maneuvering room.

 

[Blackstone]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

Well, in some ways it is clearly more of a political move. The Chinese want to exert more influence over the disupted territory. They thought that this ADIZ would help them do that.

There's something of a Monroe Doctrine feel to Xi Jinping's ADIZ. With the announcement, China is basically saying 'We have control over this area. We're not yet strong enough to push you people out, but we will be in the future. When that day comes, we'll push you out, and you're not welcomed back.'

 

[Blitzo]

Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

I mean that if the Japanese had chalenged the ADIZ first, the Chinese would have a very difficult time, given the dispute, or not taking much more aggressive action and tensions and confrontation would have gone up.

But, since the US Air Force challenged it, in the same place, the Chinese have a much more graceful way of stepping away from a confrontational posture to the more defensive posture that the ADIZ provides.

Oh I see. I'm not sure about that, but I suppose anything Japan does militarily would be seen in a bad light by China.

But as I've stated the "challenge" of the ADIZ is very much a non challenge. No more a challenge than Chinese Y-8s and Tu-154s entering Japanese ADIZ or Russian bears entering US ADIZ.

The Japanese use their ADIZ to defend against offensive flight postures towards their territory.

The issue with thei ADIZ is not that it makes sense as a defensive tool against offensive flight postures targeting the Chinese mainland. I do not believe anyone would have a problem with that.

Good thing that we can agree on that

However, it is also clearly aimed at the disputed islands and changese the satstus qou that has existed for the Japanese for over 30 years where their aircraft regularly fly over those silands to help them administer it as they have done heretofore.

This is unfortunately interwoven with the events of recent years.

While the Chinese ADIZ does challenge the "status quo," I think we need to recognize the status quo since China established relations with Japan is that both sides would try to ignore the islands dispute for greater political and economic links. They were doing that since the late 70s until a few years ago. It was the act of Japan arresting a Chinese fisherman near the islands which was the first major escalation, and last year in 2012 when the Japanese government bought the islands it turned to a massive new escalation.

Both nations had a "gentlemen's agreement" to effectively put the dispute on the backburner. Japan technically adminstered the island, but they'd also make little noise about their sovereignty over it. China wouldn't raise to much noise over it but officially their position on Japanese administration was still the same as it is today.

China is now only challenging JApanese administration of the air and sea because of recent events in 2010 which were perceived by China as Japan breaking from their previous agreement to ignore the dispute. Arresting the Chinese fisherman was effectively seen as an exertion of Japanese sovereignty over the islands, which led China to respond in kind.

It's an unfortunate circumstance.

The Jaoanese are not going to give the PRC flight plans or transponder info for their military flights over those islands.

I'm sure China didn't expect it when they set up the ADIZ.

However China will still retain the rights to intercept aircraft in their ADIZ.

That's the hiccup. I hope the PRC does not press that issue and attempt to establish the AWACS and military patrols it would take to prevent it. The US, in its actions with military aircraft voer the precise same islands, has given the PRC a chance to step away from that issue. I hope they take it.

I am a little cloudy on your wording here.

Are you saying you would like China to dismantle the entire ADIZ or only the part over the disputed islands?

Because China has no reason to do either.
As I've said, the US "challenge" to the ADIZ doesn't mean that China will immediately start shooting missiles.
No nation with an ADIZ expects opposing nation's military aircraft to file flight paths or activate transponders.

Chinese Y-8s and Tu-154s don't in japanese ADIZ, Russian Tu-95s dont' in US ADIZ, US B-52s don't in Chinese ADIZ. It's all an even playing field, and the presence of US aircraft in China's ADIZ that don't abide by the rules set down by the PRC doesn't mean China has to scrap it, it'll just mean China will occasionally send fighters to intercept and probably take photos of the aircraft who are non responsive.

 

[Blackstone]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

Actually, the US does not require any foreign plane, military or civilian, scheduled or otherwise, to do anything when they traverse American ADIZ, unless they actually enter American territorial air space.

So the US didn't require foreign planes to do this or else the US would do that. The US didn't posture eventhough it had full capacity to back up the posture. The US didn't bluff. It didn't even talk, over its ADIZ.

China did require foreign planes to do this or else China would do that. China did not back this up by doing that when foreign planes failed to do this. So it definitely seemed like an empty bluff.

Anytime when a major power bluffs to other major powers, and have its bluff called, it's a serious set back that effects its credibility and short term maneuvering room.

China is playing

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and not poker. The ADIZ move isn't a bluff, but another stone in the Great Power game. Will it succeed in eventually winning the game is debatable, but it most likely isn't a bluff.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

It's great that we're in agreement.

I feel like we should just reiterate some of the points to make sure the discussion, if it continues, agrees to these facts:

1: ADIZ is not NFZ

Agreed completely.

2: Chinese ADIZ doesn't restrict military flights from foreign aircraft, and if foreign military aircraft choose not to activate transponders or file flight plans that is their right and China may respond with interceptions (which is also China's right)

Agreed to first half, and it goes without saying that China, with its aircraft can intercept whomever it chooses. This dos not mean that they can always do so without consequence.

The rub is this. If the PRC uses the ADIZ to identify aircraft closing on its coast line in an aggressive posture, to warn those aircraft off, or to intercept them as the come into, or clearly intend to volate Chinese air space over the mainland....great. But, if they try and set up the AWACS and fighter patrols to do the same to the Japanese aircraft flying their normal patrols over those islands...then there will be trouble.

This would be a clear escalation of the status quo, and the US has now contested it with its own military aircraft.

3: Chinese ADIZ doesn't impact (or at least is not meant to) impact international civilian flights

Agreed.