East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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solarz

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Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

I think it was obvious even if it were not for the Senkaku crisis upon which US credibility in the west pacific indirectly hangs in balance, that the US was never going to concede any air rights over a region in western pacific where it formerly had total unrestricted air rights, without some very large commensurate concessions from China.

It was a major blunder for China to have declared the ADIZ. It was a bluff that predictably would be called. China's standing and credibility in the west pacific probably took a significant blow.

Not sure about that. Remember the Hainan incident? The PLAAF can make things difficult for USAF aircraft, and with the establishment of the ADIZ, they're basically announcing that that's what they will be doing in the future.

Remember that the US has been conducting aerial and maritime surveillance of China for a long time. US incursions into Chinese perimeter is nothing new. What China is doing is that they have now expanded the area over which they will be challenging foreign aircraft.
 

Blitzo

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Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

I think it was obvious even if it were not for the Senkaku crisis upon which US credibility in the west pacific indirectly hangs in balance, that the US was never going to concede any air rights over a region in western pacific where it formerly had total unrestricted air rights, without some very large commensurate concessions from China.

It was a major blunder for China to have declared the ADIZ. It was a bluff that predictably would be called. China's standing and credibility in the west pacific probably took a significant blow.

An ADIZ is not a NFZ. The US military aircraft can still operate in the ADIZ, and they've chosen not to notify China of their flight plans or activate transponders. No big deal.

US B-52s operated in the ADIZ and were "unchallenged". I see. Fighters are usually only scrambled if the aircraft is unidentified -- not every contact must be intercepted and taken pictures of.
How long did the B-52s fly in the area? If they simply poked a nose in and then scooted off they wouldn't have had time to be intercepted by PLAAF planes anyway.
How deep into the ADIZ did they go? The deeper they go the more likely they would have been intercepted.



So really this "lack" of response doesn't impact China's standing and credibility at all. This isn't a "bluff" that was "called" -- China never said they would shoot down or challenge every military aircraft that didn't adhere to its rules. Further if the B-52 only briefly skimmed the periphery of the ADIZ there is no chance in hell any aircraft operating from the mainland would be able to intercept it. That may be seen as a "challenge" to the ADIZ but it could also be seen as a token US response. We don't know the flight plan of the B-52s unfortunately

So was it a major blunder to declare the ADIZ? No it wasn't. The US can still operate their planes in the region. It gives the PLAAF pretext for intercepting them if they get closer. The fact that the PLAAF didn't send in planes this time is not indicative of much.
So what does the PRC gain for the ADIZ? Well it calls Abe's bluff, and in this case it calls it very convincingly because the Japanese military said very clearly they would shoot foreign drones that entered disputed airspace. If Chinese fighters ever opreate over that airspace and aren't shot at, then Japan's claim would lose credibility.

China by contrast never claimed military aircraft would be restricted from operating in its ADIZ, no has it claimed it would intercept all aircraft and shoot down non-compliant ones.
 

Jeff Head

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Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

A long-planned flight of USAF B-52 over the new chinese ADIZ. There wasnt any military or political reaction from china. I wonder if this ADIZ is more political than pratical.

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Well, in some ways it is clearly more of a political move. The Chinese want to exert more influence over the disupted territory. They thought that this ADIZ would help them do that.

But the US is not going to play along with those requirements. The ADIZ as detailed by the PRC requires that any non-regular civilian flight file a flight plan and inform the Chinese of their transponder codes and frequecies.

The US has said no in a very direct way, both verbally, and now, a day later, physically. I expect in the areas right over those Islands, where the Japanese have been administering the islands and flying their maritime patrol aircraft for over 30 years, that the Japanese will also now clearly say no.

But the fact is that the US did it first, and that was probably by desing, even though this was a planned flight. they did not cancel or alter it and used it to make thge US the one who took the lead.

This also gives the PRC a way to more gracefull back down. I expect that if the PRC now uses the ADIZ as a "buffer" zone, to identify any aircraft flying an agressive flight path aimed at the Chinese mainland, and then only intercepts those aircraft at a pre-determined distance well within the zone, that things will stay calm.

However, should the Chinese up the ante and begin deploying AWACS on each end of the Zone, with multiple flighter patrols within the zone (all of them on a 24x7) basis to try and truly enforce the whole zone...then there could be trouble. I hope that does not happen, and really do not expect it to because the cost and tempo the PRC would have to maintain to enforce such a large zone strictly at such distances from the mianland would make it pretty cost prohibitive to me. It's the kind of a thing you exert over a much weaker opponent, or in a time of war. neither of those exist in this case..

Here on SD, to avoid the otherwise likelihood of national fervor on both sides resulting in calls for enforcing the zone completely on one side, or in terms of responding with military force against the zone on the other, lets try and focus our efforts on a defensive nature of the ADIZ, and the opportunity the PRC has to avoid a direct confrontation with Japan. IOW, lets avoid talk of direct military confrontations. If the Zone becomes a buffer for true protetction of the mainland only, then there would little need for escalation.

Anyhow, that's my advise. Otherwise the forum members on both sides of this could easily work up quite the lather over it.
 

Blitzo

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Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

So if it doesn't effect military or civilian then who does it effect? Batman? Aliens from the planet Krypton? Big Bird?

It gives the PLAAF the right to intercept planes at greater distances as well as challenging Japan's claim to the islands.

The media are spinning it as if the PRC are making this a NFZ.

And ADIZ isn't a NFZ, its goals are far more mundane than that in a military sense.
Its political reasoning is far stronger, because it directly challenges the Japanese claim that they would shoot down foreign drones that enter its airspace.



Is Russia "challenging" the US ADIZ when it flies near alaska? Is China "challenging" the Japanese ADIZ when it flies recon birds past the second island chain?
 

Blitzo

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Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

I think this thread should be closed btw. The last thread imploded on itself, this one will do the same.


(but I'm going to continue replying before it's closed! IMHO as long as everyone is cordial things are okay)
 
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Franklin

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Re: US military news thread

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Wow. ^^^. I wonder what the Chinese response will be if these missions continue? The Chinese stated they would not tolerate violations of that airspace..

Another thing both Nimitz & George Washington CSG with complete air wings are operating in a area just west of this zone.

Perhabs interceptions if this continues. I still think this is a storm in a tea cup as an air defense zone is NOT a no fly zone.
 

Blitzo

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Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

Jef Head said:
Well, in some ways it is clearly more of a political move. The Chinese want to exert more influence over the disupted territory. They thought that this ADIZ would help them do that.

But the US is not going to play along with those requirements. The ADIZ as detailed by the PRC requires that any non-regular civilian flight file a flight plan and inform the Chinese of their transponder codes and frequecies.I've briefly skimmed through the FAA's ADIZ requirements and they aren't that different.

There is some confusion as to whether civilian flights will be impacted. I think they require flight plans, but China has also said international flights will be unaffected.


So this will really only impact military flights.


Now Jeff, let's be frank here. While the Chinese ADIZ does give China pretext for flying over the disputed islands, you can also understand why China needs an ADIZ, surely?

I am sure you are familiar with US and Japan's ADIZ. We know why ADIZ's exist. Considering bombers and fighters can fly very fast and strike a nation's soil with little warning, an ADIZ gives forewarning and the right of a nation to check any suspicious aircraft that may pose a threat to national security.
That is why the US intercepts Russian Bears.

China faces one of the most formidable militaries in the world with the most capable air forces in the world -- US air force and US navy -- right on its doorstep. Isn't it a military sensibility to have an ADIZ of its own?

The ADIZ impacts US military operations because obviously the US isn't going to inform the Chinese of their secretive military training flights and routines with a transponder and flight plans. And the US can choose not to abide by those rules, that's no problem. China will simply send aircraft to intercept and monitor them if they get too close. Again, that's an international norm and a militarily logical move, yes?

Anyway here's an article and a blog post about the ADIZ which I think sheds some light on the matter with a rather candid view.

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China ADIZ: You Furnish the Hysterics, We’ll Furnish the Heightened Tensions


That guidance (to paraphrase Hearst’s famous admonition to Frederic Remington on the occasion of the Spanish-American War, “You furnish the pictures, I’ll furnish the war,”) pretty much sums up the interaction of the government of Japan and the Western media on the matter of the Chinese Air Defense Identification Zone or ADIZ.

I’m not going to engage in Fisking by bulk here, but Western outlets have unanimously spun the Chinese ADIZ as some reckless stunt to challenge Japan over the Senkaku airspace.

Bullshit.

Basically, as I describe in an article for Asia Times Online, China's Defense Zone Creates a Flap, the Chinese ADIZ does tweak Japan on the matter of the Senkakus by extending the southeast corner of the envelope to cover the islands.

However, the ADIZ covers all of the East China Sea between Japan and the PRC. It is not an assertion of sovereignty. It creates a zone in which unidentified aircraft are required to identify themselves to Chinese authorities. It’s an early warning system meant to provide time cushion in an era of high speed warplanes.

America has an ADIZ.

For aviation enthusiasts, here is a very interesting and somewhat technical description provided by the FAA on enforcement of the USADIZ.

Spoiler: in principle, if not depth of detail, the implementation looks pretty much like the Chinese ADIZ—except it’s stricter, requires prefiling a flight plan, and specifies a rather onerous-looking tolerance of plus/minus 5 minutes and 20 nautical miles for deviations from the plan.

Guess what. Japan also has an ADIZ.

The Chinese ADIZ directly parallels and overlaps the Japanese ADIZ—a fact that has escaped most of the press in its vaporings over the issue. (From Taylor Fravel's tweet: yellow line = Chinese ADIZ; red line = Japanese ADIZ; red field = overlap.)
So, if properly implemented and respected by both sides, the Chinese ADIZ is stabilizing, not destabilizing.

This, on the other hand, is not stabilizing:


Abe told a parliamentary session that China's declaration of the zone above the islands (known as the Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China) altered the state of affairs in the East China Sea and escalated a tense situation.

"The measures by the Chinese side have no validity whatsoever on Japan, and we demand China revoke any measures that could infringe upon the freedom of flight in international airspace," Abe said during an upper house session. "It can invite an unexpected occurrence and it is a very dangerous thing as well."



I’m assuming Abe’s refusal to accept the Chinese ADIZ draws strength from US concerns about the PRC move voiced by Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel and Secretary of State John Kerry. In contrast to previous PRC-Japan jostling, the United States has clearly lined up with Japan and also went the extra mile to reaffirm that the mutual defense treaty covers the Senkakus.

The DoD statement reads:


"The United States is deeply concerned by the People's Republic of China announcement today that it is establishing an air defense identification zone in the East China Sea. We view this development as a destabilizing attempt to alter the status quo in the region. This unilateral action increases the risk of misunderstanding and miscalculations.

"This announcement by the People's Republic of China will not in any way change how the United States conducts military operations in the region.

"The United States is conveying these concerns to China through diplomatic and military channels, and we are in close consultation with our allies and partners in the region, including Japan.

"We remain steadfast in our commitments to our allies and partners. The United States reaffirms its longstanding policy that Article V of the U.S.-Japan Mutual Defense Treaty applies to the Senkaku Islands."

In my personal opinion, the US statement is not relating to China’s declaration of an ADIZ (after all, both the United States and Japan have them) but in the fact that the PRC declared the ADIZ unilaterally and, in its ambiguous wording of the regulations, conveyed the implication that US warplanes in the zone might be expected to obey the instructions of whoever was enforcing the Chinese ADIZ.

If the US military has one absolute imperative in East Asia, it is its ability to sail where it wants and fly where it wants subject to some extremely limited and carefully parsed limits imposed by international law (for instance, by a judicious exploitation of loopholes in the Law of the Sea Treaty—which the US hasn’t even ratified—the US Navy has openly repudiated Chinese objections and affirmed the right to conduct military surveillance detrimental to the PRC’s national security within the PRC’s Exclusive Economic Zone).

As for aircraft, the most famous incident relating to the PRC, of course, was the collision of a Chinese fighter jet with a US EP-3 surveillance plane over China’s EEZ off Hainan Island in April 2001. Despite vociferous complaints by the PRC, the U.S. took an effective and convincing stand that it had the right to continue the surveillance flights.

Based on a quick survey of the literature, US armed forces assert the right to fly through any international airspace without restriction. However, as a concession to the anxieties of other governments about unidentified aircraft near their borders, at least in the case of Peru, I did find that the US encouraged Peru to check the flight plans on file and approach the planes, rather gingerly I expect, to confirm their markings. In other words, no radio chatter, no transponder stuff.

If the United States is going to initiate AirSea Battle, in other words, it isn’t going to tip its hand when it enters the Chinese ADIZ, or help out Chinese air defense by turning on its transponders.

The PRC is not going to be able to challenge that freedom just by publishing some regulations.

Despite the US decision to tilt toward Japan on the ADIZ issue, I expect that this story will join the platter of mislabeled China-threat nothingburgers heaped up by the media, including but not limited to the “PRC Coast Guard regs allow China to stop ships transiting the South China Sea” canard and the “China claims Okinawa” BS.
 
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Jeff Head

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Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Yes, I agree that the B-52 flights are a political move.
Well, in my last post I meant that the establishment of the ADIZ was more of a political move. The B-52 flights had been planned well in advance.

Now the US could have canceled them, or bowed to the Chinese request. not doing that was politcal...they were iaying no the the PRC. And I believe the US took advantage of being able to say no so quickly for a purpose.

This gives the PRC a way to more gracefully back down from any stringent enforcement of the ADIZ much more easily than say had the Japanese been the first to challenege it in this way.

My question is in regards to semantics, I suppose. China has requested foreign aircraft activate transponders, and give flight plans etc, and of course the USAF is free to ignore these requests.

Does ignoring those requests constitute a "challenge" to the ADIZ?
Well, according to the intial announcements, any aircraft that ignored it would be subject to Chinese emergency military responses. But it does not say what those are. Hieghtened alert levels? Intercepts? Does not say.

Similarly, does flying in bombers also constitute a "challenge"?

Putting this another way, do Russian Tu-95 flights into the Alaskan ADIZ also constitute a challenge per se? The situations are not very different.
Well along the Bearing Strait they are different. There is no buffer there. There are places there where both 12-mile limits literally butt up against each other.

Further out in the Bearing Sea it is different.

the US uses the ADIZ there to allow them to see an aircraft coming at greater distance and be able to challenge it beffore it comes too close to the US 12-mile national limit.

If the Chinese were to use this zone in that way...I believe things will settle down and not be on any razor's edge. Many folks here are taking the establishment of the zone as a direct escalation of the dispute and a challenge to normal air navigation over the open seas around those islands.

By having the US be the first to challenege it, it gives the Chinese a way to show that the former is more the case rather than the latter.
 

Blitzo

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Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Jeff Head said:
Well, in my last post I meant that the establishment of the ADIZ was more of a political move. The B-52 flights had been planned well in advance.
It is a political move in the sense that it gives china a pretext to operate over the disputed islands.

However every other aspect is a military decision, which I outlined in the other thread.

First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

Now the US could have canceled them, or bowed to the Chinese request. not doing that was politcal...they were iaying no the the PRC. And I believe the US took advantage of being able to say no so quickly for a purpose.

Yes, and while that is a political move, it is also relatively meaningless because no foreign military aircraft will activate transponders while in another's ADIZ. I'm pretty sure PLAAF recon planes don't do it when they enter Japanese ADIZ and I'd be surprised if Russian bears

This gives the PRC a way to more gracefully back down from any stringent enforcement of the ADIZ much more easily than say had the Japanese been the first to challenege it in this way.
I don't understand.

Well, according to the intial announcements, any aircraft that ignored it would be subject to Chinese emergency military responses. But it does not say what those are. Hieghtened alert levels? Intercepts? Does not say.
That's why I like the phrasing of the Chinese ADIZ rules. It gives them leeway to deal with aircraft depending on the regional security environment.

Well along the Bearing Strait they are different. There is no buffer there. There are places there where both 12-mile limits literally butt up against each other.

Further out in the Bearing Sea it is different.

the US uses the ADIZ there to allow them to see an aircraft coming at greater distance and be able to challenge it beffore it comes too close to the US 12-mile national limit.

If the Chinese were to use this zone in that way...I believe things will settle down and not be on any razor's edge. Many folks here are taking the establishment of the zone as a direct escalation of the dispute and a challenge to normal air navigation over the open seas around those islands.

By having the US be the first to challenege it, it gives the Chinese a way to show that the former is more the case rather than the latter.

I don't think anyone sees the PLAAF ADIZ as a challenge to normal air navigation over open seas, no more than the Japanese ADIZ over the pacific restricts PLAAF aircraft from entering it and operating over the first island chain.

It does challenge the Japanese control over the disputed islands. But it doesn't challenge normal air navigation. China has said that civilian aircraft are not supposed to be affected by this ADIZ and the only impact it will have will be on military aircraft. Military aircraft obviously won't abide to these rules, and that gives China greater pretext for intercepting them at greater distances if need be.

Again, I want to reiterate that the ADIZ is not a NFZ.
 
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Cheng

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Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

The ADIZ policy was first mooted some weeks ago, and prior to its implementation, discussions had been held with South Korea.

So this has been brewing for some time now - enough for China to have gamed out all the possible responses, and planned their reactions.

And now we see the Japanese airlines no longer following the ADIZ rules

Two Japanese airlines to disregard China air zone rules
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My guess is that leaves those airlines subject to sanctions or being denied access to Chinese airports.

So China could probably go the economic route where it has an advantage, rather than use the military and cause more alarm.
 
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