East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[kroko]

I wonder what will happen if and when chinese armed warplanes overfly the disputed islands...what will the reaction of japanese air force.

 

[mr.bean]

Like Rambo said to his commanding officer - Sir, they draw the first blood..... So he did what he had to do. A give back in kind.

now I gotta rewatch Rambo now that you mentioned it

PLAAF message to JASDF : ''we are coming to the party, yeah baby yeah let's dance''

 

[Blackstone]

I wonder what will happen if and when chinese armed warplanes overfly the disputed islands...what will the reaction of japanese air force.

If Japan fires the first shot, then we're not obligated to protect it from China.

 

[Rutim]

the Japanese made the claim that they will shoot down foreign drones that enter its airspace, including Diaoyu/senkaku. China's ADIZ includes Diaoyu/senkaku, giving pretext for military craft to operate in that airspace. It completely changes the situation by calling Abe's bluff and effectively ending unilateral Japanese air patrols over Diaoyu. That is the political change.

Well, those islets are under Japanese administrartion right now. This isn't any political change. The so called 'air defence zone' has no grounding in international laws and, as I wrote before, China can claim entire Pacific as their 'air defence zone' and it's up to others whether they'll respect it or not (this is international airspace). This isn't Chinese airspace under international law as well so it's not giving any pretext because Chinese airspace zone isn't Chinese territory...

In the last day PLA sent two recon aircraft (Tu-154M and Y-8GX), supported by fighters and AEWC.

Wow, another scrambling for Japanese. Good that China reported it as well this time. I'm more interested how Japanese made scramblings when we get reports and maps showing the newly established 'big D' on the East Chinese Sea suggesting it wasn't as big and didn't even start where Japanese zone ended (maps showing the usual 12 miles zone off the Chinese mainland). To make a scrambling in this case would require making it into Chinese territorial airspace and we know that Japanese never did this. Do they count only Senkaku in those stats?

However, this "PR stunt" gives the PLAAF/NAF greater justification for more consistent and rigorous operations over its new ADIZ.

There's nothing like 'greater jurisdiction'. You'll just have to report it to Chinese and Japanese entering the mixed zone if you don't want to get a nice 'tail' in few minutes. No one can claim international airspace as theirs and put in force laws of a given country there as it clearly violation of international laws.

Well, it gives the PLAAF pretext for making more routine military flights, which by itself is a greater difficulty than what JASDF currently faces.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

They were flying there earlier as well. I'll write it again - every time Chinese aircraft made it past the first islands chain (if not taking the route around the NE Taiwan's shores) it went through Japanese zone so you could see nice photos of it on Japanese MOD webpage. Nothing new under the sun.

Pretty sure most unbiased observers would acknowledge how large and far Japan's ADIZ is relative to its size.

Well, it's hard to assume that something will enter from the East. It all goes from the opposite side of Japanese Archipelago. After all it's a vast country put on hundreds of islands. Pretty logic. It's still much smaller than the whole Chinese one

Also, this chart below seems to lend an idea that more PLA bases are in greater proximity to the ADIZ than JASDF bases. I'm not sure if there are any other JASDF bases that will be relevant, and would be thankful for greater clarification.

It's not showing the zone but Senkakus (oh, and I'd assume that the nearest to those airbase is located on... Taiwan! - a side in the territorial dispute as well) which are on the southern end of the 'shared' zone. I'll write once again - the easternmost vicinity of the 'shared' zone is closer to Japanese air bases on Okinawa and Kyushu, while the westernmost is closer to Chinese mainland shores.

I won't claim that they're going to fall out of the sky, but fact of the matter is JASDF fighters will suffer greater flight time attrition than PLAAF fighters meaning they'll have to be replaced faster, partly because they will fly more than each average PLAAF fighter, but also because they are already older. That is as much of an economic strain as a military one.

I assume that if they had patroled their zone they'll continue to that on the same pace or just keep an aircraft or two constantly in 'shared' area at best (i doubt it though they could).

I wonder what will happen if and when chinese armed warplanes overfly the disputed islands...what will the reaction of japanese air force.

Nothing unusual. It already happened. Normal scrambling.

 

[Blitzo]

Well, those islets are under Japanese administrartion right now. This isn't any political change. The so called 'air defence zone' has no grounding in international laws and, as I wrote before, China can claim entire Pacific as their 'air defence zone' and it's up to others whether they'll respect it or not (this is international airspace). This isn't Chinese airspace under international law as well so it's not giving any pretext because Chinese airspace zone isn't Chinese territory...

Actually there is a political change. The current Japanese administration has tried its best to paint the islands as theirs unilaterally, which started by the arrest of a fisherman in the islands in 2010, along with purchasing the islands from a businessman, and finally by the claim that they will shoot down "foreign drones" that enter its airspace -- in this case, diaoyu/senkaku. These are all acts meant to strengthen its claim and "inherent sovereignty" over the islands
If PLAAF fighters operate within their ADIZ including over diaoyu/senkaku without being shot at then that sovereignty claim is massively weakened and reverts back into a case of "disputed territory".

That is the political change.

Wow, another scrambling for Japanese. Good that China reported it as well this time. I'm more interested how Japanese made scramblings when we get reports and maps showing the newly established 'big D' on the East Chinese Sea suggesting it wasn't as big and didn't even start where Japanese zone ended (maps showing the usual 12 miles zone off the Chinese mainland). To make a scrambling in this case would require making it into Chinese territorial airspace and we know that Japanese never did this. Do they count only Senkaku in those stats?

... I have no idea what you're talking about?

There's nothing like 'greater jurisdiction'. You'll just have to report it to Chinese and Japanese entering the mixed zone if you don't want to get a nice 'tail' in few minutes. No one can claim international airspace as theirs and put in force laws of a given country there as it clearly violation of international laws.

Greater jurisdiction for more consistent and vigorous operations over its ADIZ. That is to say, they will fly more.

They were flying there earlier as well. I'll write it again - every time Chinese aircraft made it past the first islands chain (if not taking the route around the NE Taiwan's shores) it went through Japanese zone so you could see nice photos of it on Japanese MOD webpage. Nothing new under the sun.

Yes, and good for them. But there's a difference between transiting through a Japanese ADIZ to venture through the first island chain and another thing entirely to have your own ADIZ which you will patrol. By the sheer nature of an ADIZ it means the PLAAF will be sending more planes (and more fighters specifically) in the air.

That is an increase to what the JASDF currently faces. So it is a change.

Well, it's hard to assume that something will enter from the East. It all goes from the opposite side of Japanese Archipelago. After all it's a vast country put on hundreds of islands. Pretty logic. It's still much smaller than the whole Chinese one

Yes, but the PLAAF have more fighters
And the airspace which China has to patrol is all internal, they don't have a massive swathe of ADIZ
And because that airspace is internal, they can use their hundreds of J-7s and J-8s
Leaving their 700-800 longer range modern fighters for other duties

It's not showing the zone but Senkakus (oh, and I'd assume that the nearest to those airbase is located on... Taiwan! - a side in the territorial dispute as well) which are on the southern end of the 'shared' zone. I'll write once again - the easternmost vicinity of the 'shared' zone is closer to Japanese air bases on Okinawa and Kyushu, while the westernmost is closer to Chinese mainland shores.

After doing a little bit of research, I believe the chart is correct, namely that the closest JASDF base to the overlapping ADIZ/disputed islands is Naha Air Base in Okinawa. Every other airbase is in the home islands of Japan.

Taiwan hasn't done air patrols nor are they intending to, not that far. So they're virtually out of this discussion.

Fact is, the PRC has many more airbases and fighters in range which they can throw at the overlapping ADIZ/disputed islands than Japan does.

Naha air base only features F-15Js and some P-3s. There are plans to host some E-2Cs as well

 

[Rutim]

Actually there is a political change. The current Japanese administration has tried its best to paint the islands as theirs unilaterally, which started by the arrest of a fisherman in the islands in 2010, along with purchasing the islands from a businessman, and finally by the claim that they will shoot down "foreign drones" that enter its airspace -- in this case, diaoyu/senkaku. These are all acts meant to strengthen its claim and "inherent sovereignty" over the islands

What's wrong with arresting a fisherman? Chinese fishemen are a real pain in the for South Korean CG more than Japanese. I don't remeber too much whining from China about Koreans arresting them.

If PLAAF fighters operate within their ADIZ including over diaoyu/senkaku without being shot at then that sovereignty claim is massively weakened and reverts back into a case of "disputed territory".

That is the political change.

Yeah. Too bad not jurisdical change. Nothing changed there...

... I have no idea what you're talking about?

I simply asked why there were so many scramblings reported by the Chinese? Just look at the maps which China showed with the newly established 'East Air Defence Identification Zone' news

The red line near the Chinese coast is, I assume, Chinese national airspace (sorry, can't read that - too small Hanzhis, maybe you could help?). Scrambling would require a Japanese aircraft intrusion into this zone, right? The maps don't show the current Chinese identification zone (it started right when Japanese ended?). Then it would mean that Japanese would have gone over Chinese territorial airspace which, as we know, never happened. I assume this is just pure PR stunt as the lines actually indicate the claimed Chinese EEZ and it only shows what's been already executed by Chinese. That's what I'm talking about - how to use map which doesn't show anything new. The zone existed earlier? Probably yes, but only on PLAAF maps. If so it's been only extended. Chinese side only announced the rules for civilian aircraft. That's all I could gather from the news.

Greater jurisdiction for more consistent and vigorous operations over its ADIZ. That is to say, they will fly more.

You can't get 'greater' jurisdiction over something you can't possess (international airspace) without changing international laws.

And the airspace which China has to patrol is all internal, they don't have a massive swathe of ADIZ
And because that airspace is internal, they can use their hundreds of J-7s and J-8s
Leaving their 700-800 longer range modern fighters for other duties

So, it's their right to do so anyway and they have been doing that already. As I wrote before - simply more scrambling for Japanese. They don't have to send their aircraft everytime and control them all the time. Take a photo, few minutes alongside flight and get back to your work. Yes, they can throw a million of fighters there but I don't know why you're writing like they couldn't do it earlier?

 

[Blackstone]

And now, we see the United States doing some Kabuki dance of her own-

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Geneva (AFP) - The United States said Saturday it was "deeply concerned" and committed to defending Japan after China announced an air zone in the East China Sea that includes disputed islands.

In a move that US ally Japan branded as "very dangerous," China said it was setting up the "air defense identification zone" over the islands administered by Tokyo to "guard against potential air threats."

In similar statements, Secretary of State John Kerry and Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said that the United States was "deeply concerned" about the moves by China, which also scrambled air force jets to carry out a patrol mission in the newly declared zone.

"This unilateral action constitutes an attempt to change the status quo in the East China Sea," Kerry said.

"Escalatory action will only increase tensions in the region and create risks of an incident," the top US diplomat said from Geneva, where he was taking part in talks on reaching an agreement with Iran on its nuclear program.

Kerry said that the United States has urged China to "exercise caution and restraint," and warned Beijing against implementing its new zone.

"We urge China not to implement its threat to take action against aircraft that do not identify themselves or obey orders from Beijing," Kerry said.

View gallery."US Secretary of State John Kerry arrives at Geneva …
US Secretary of State John Kerry arrives at Geneva International airport in Geneva on November 23, 2 …
Hagel reiterated that the Japanese-administered Senkaku islands -- which the Chinese claim and call the Diaoyu -- fell under the US-Japan security treaty, meaning that Washington would defend its ally Tokyo if the area is attacked.

"We are in close consultation with our allies and partners in the region, including Japan. We remain steadfast in our commitments to our allies and partners," Hagel said.

The defense chief made clear that the United States, which stations more than 70,000 troops in Japan and South Korea, would not respect China's declaration of control over the zone.

"This announcement by the People's Republic of China will not in any way change how the United States conducts military operations in the region," Hagel said.

The outline of the zone, which is shown on the Chinese defense ministry website and a state media Twitter account (pic.twitter.com/4a2vC6PH8O), covers a wide area of the East China Sea between South Korea and Taiwan that includes airspace above the disputed islands.

Japan last year nationalized the islands last year and has vowed not to cede sovereignty or even to acknowledge a dispute with China, accusing its growing neighbor of trying to change the status quo through intimidation.

China and Taiwan both claim the islands, which fall near potentially energy-rich waters.

The United States says that it has no position on the islands' ultimate sovereignty but believes that they are currently under Japanese administration.

"Freedom of overflight and other internationally lawful uses of sea and airspace are essential to prosperity, stability and security in the Pacific," Kerry said.

He called for a "more collaborative and less confrontational future in the Pacific."

The United States, for its part, does not ask foreign aircraft to identify themselves if they are not intending to enter US airspace.

US President Barack Obama has pledged a greater focus on Asia in light of China's rise and plans to shift the majority of US warships to the Asia-Pacific region by 2020.

Obama plans to visit Asia, reportedly including Japan, in April. Kerry, who has invested much of his time on the Middle East, will travel to Asia in the coming weeks.

 

[Engineer]

Well, those islets are under Japanese administrartion right now. This isn't any political change.

Those islets are also under Chinese administration right now.

The so called 'air defence zone' has no grounding in international laws and, as I wrote before, China can claim entire Pacific as their 'air defence zone' and it's up to others whether they'll respect it or not (this is international airspace). This isn't Chinese airspace under international law as well so it's not giving any pretext because Chinese airspace zone isn't Chinese territory...

You should lecture the Japanese government on your view of International Laws, since that government is the one that started policing its identification zone in the first place. That is also the government that tries to muddle the difference between an identification zone and airspace. As for the new identification zone from China, the Chinese government did not referred to it as their territory.

Wow, another scrambling for Japanese. Good that China reported it as well this time. I'm more interested how Japanese made scramblings when we get reports and maps showing the newly established 'big D' on the East Chinese Sea suggesting it wasn't as big and didn't even start where Japanese zone ended (maps showing the usual 12 miles zone off the Chinese mainland). To make a scrambling in this case would require making it into Chinese territorial airspace and we know that Japanese never did this. Do they count only Senkaku in those stats?There's nothing like 'greater jurisdiction'.

By Chinese reports, the Chinese aircraft patrolled Chinese newly created identification zone. As this new zone overlaps with Japanese identification zone, the aircraft most likely flew into Japanese identification zone as well. That overlapped area is quite a bit further than 12 nm off of Chinese coast.

You'll just have to report it to Chinese and Japanese entering the mixed zone if you don't want to get a nice 'tail' in few minutes. No one can claim international airspace as theirs and put in force laws of a given country there as it clearly violation of international laws.

Chinese are not claiming international airspace as their own here.

They were flying there earlier as well. I'll write it again - every time Chinese aircraft made it past the first islands chain (if not taking the route around the NE Taiwan's shores) it went through Japanese zone so you could see nice photos of it on Japanese MOD webpage. Nothing new under the sun.

Clearly, if the whole point was for Chinese aircraft to just fly over there, there wouldn't need to be an identification zone. The actual issue is that it is none of Japan's business for Chinese aircraft and ship to operate in international area. There is no reason for Japan to make a big stink every time Chinese are operating in international area and posting related photos on Japanese MOD webpage. Japan's identification zones are being treated by Japan as some sort of defacto territory, and this is what I believe the Chinese identification zone is created to counter.

Well, it's hard to assume that something will enter from the East. It all goes from the opposite side of Japanese Archipelago. After all it's a vast country put on hundreds of islands. Pretty logic. It's still much smaller than the whole Chinese one

Actually, the identification zone of Japan covers an area that's larger than China itself. Far from logical, it is pretty ridiculous especially considering there isn't much worth protecting on those hundreds of islands in the first place.

 

[Blitzo]

What's wrong with arresting a fisherman? Chinese fishemen are a real pain in the for South Korean CG more than Japanese.

For disputed territory it means an exercise of sovereignty. Considering sovereignty over the islands is what was under dispute, the move was inflammatory.

Yeah. Too bad not jurisdical change. Nothing changed there...

My entire point was the political change of weakening Japan's claim to the islands. If those islands are indeed supposed to be Japanese airspace then another nation's military craft shouldn't be able to fly there without being shot down, should it? But an ADIZ flies in the face of it.

I simply asked why there were so many scramblings reported by the Chinese?

?? What do you mean "so many scramblings"? Which reports do you refer to?

Just look at the maps which China showed with the newly established 'East Air Defence Identification Zone' news

The red line near the Chinese coast is, I assume, Chinese national airspace (sorry, can't read that - too small Hanzhis, maybe you could help?). Scrambling would require a Japanese aircraft intrusion into this zone, right? The maps don't show the current Chinese identification zone (it started right when Japanese ended?).

See, China never had an ADIZ. They had national airspace, and then there was international airspace. Frankly the lack of an ADIZ was a significant disadvantage, especially since the 2001 Hainan EP-3 incident.

Then it would mean that Japanese would have gone over Chinese territorial airspace which, as we know, never happened.

This statement doesn't make sense. It was Japan that had the ADIZ prior to yesterday, not China.
No one claimed JASDF planes ever entered PRC airspace.

I assume this is just pure PR stunt as the lines actually indicate the claimed Chinese EEZ and it only shows what's been already executed by Chinese.

I still don't understand why you believe this is a PR stunt.
For an act to constitute a PR stunt, it must lack substance. Creating an ADIZ is the complete opposite of substance. Today China doesn't do routine air patrols that far out from its national airspace. Now it will.
And of course there's the political ramifications of successfully challenging Japanese control of diaoyu/senkaku airspace, which is also a very significant act.

That's what I'm talking about - how to use map which doesn't show anything new. The zone existed earlier? Probably yes, but only on PLAAF maps. If so it's been only extended. Chinese side only announced the rules for civilian aircraft. That's all I could gather from the news.

Like I said, China never had an ADIZ. So this zone hasn't existed before. PLAAF fighters may have operated in that area, but it wasn't institutionalized, it wasn't routine, and it certainly wasn't an area that everyone knew about. Now it is.

There's a difference between occasionally putting up a few planes into an airspace occasionally and another thing entirely to be ordered to intercept and ID all suspicious looking aircraft.

You can't get 'greater' jurisdiction over something you can't possess (international airspace) without changing international laws.

Semantics.
Let's use the word "pretext" instead of "jurisdiction". The point is, the PLAAF now have a legitimate reason to operate in international airspace.

So, it's their right to do so anyway and they have been doing that already.

Yes, but they will be doing a lot more of it.

As I wrote before - simply more scrambling for Japanese.

Considering the relatively small number of F-15Js at Naha airbase and the age of their aircraft, "simply" more scrambling, isn't actually that simple.

They don't have to send their aircraft everytime and control them all the time. Take a photo, few minutes alongside flight and get back to your work. Yes, they can throw a million of fighters there but I don't know why you're writing like they couldn't do it earlier?

Currently Chinese aircraft do not regularly operate in Japanese ADIZ. A few recon planes every now and then fly past the first island chain, yes.

But establishing a Chinese ADIZ and the ADIZ overlap means there will be many more Chinese fighters that will enter that overlap region, meaning a more vigorous sortie rate for the F-15Js of Naha air base. That means a faster accumulation of flight hours, decreasing the life of your fleet, posing problems for previous procurement plans.

Of course JASDF could simply not enforce their ADIZ as rigorously to decrease their flight hours if they want.


PLAAF "could have" done this a lot earlier. In fact I feel like they should have. But they didn't, so there was no strains of changes necessary for JASDF ADIZ enforcement in their southwest region. Now this PRC ADIZ will lead to a change in PLAAF operating, so either the JASDF also add more planes to the region in response, or the flight crews of Naha will get busier than they already are.

 

[Blitzo]

And now, we see the United States doing some Kabuki dance of her own-

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I hope the Chinese delegation had a chance to tell Kerry where he could stick his concern