The Snowden Affair

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Since when has the West not thought that the Chinese government listens in to the Chinese citizens' every conversation via any medium? Since when has the Western media not said that already?

Dude really? your going to try that angle now? If they do or not is not my point. Mace in fact I could care less in this case my point was in a hypothetical what if to show that what ever decision is made by China about this guy is a reflection of what the Chinese think they could get vs some random piss poor attempt at a political statement. I was reversing the situation in a almost one for one.
But mace you want to grind your axe, be my guest.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Dude really? your going to try that angle now? If they do or not is not my point. Mace in fact I could care less in this case my point was in a hypothetical what if to show that what ever decision is made by China about this guy is a reflection of what the Chinese think they could get vs some random piss poor attempt at a political statement. I was reversing the situation in a almost one for one.
But mace you want to grind your axe, be my guest.

What angle? I don't live in a black and white world. It's moot to bring an equivalency with China when we all know they do it now. What makes it serious is the US is not suppose to do this at all. This Snowden guy is getting the focus because it's to distract people from the fact this blanket invasion of privacy is not suppose to happen in the US and it is. We already expect it with China so it's not a big deal and no one in China is going to expose such already known information except for personal gain not because he or she is bringing surprising information to light. It's not the same thing at all.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

They are different issues. One deals with separatist movement. The other concerns about freedom of speech, or in more general terms, the freedom of information, which in the U.S. should come under the Freedom of Information Acts. I remember China also has their equivalent of the freedom of information acts.

It does not matter that they are different. It's about one nation meddling in another's sovereignty.
 

Franklin

Captain
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Whether Snowden can get asylum in Hong Kong will depend on the SAR government in Hong Kong and not the PRC government in Beijing. Hong Kong and the US does have a extradition treaty that includes "computer crimes". I don't know if he can argue for asylum on political grounds.

The risky legal strategy behind Edward Snowden's flight to Hong Kong

With his decision to flee to Hong Kong, Edward Snowden, the whistleblower behind the bombshell leak that exposed a highly classified U.S. intelligence program, has taken a serious legal risk, one that may very well result in his extradition to the United States to face charges.

Though formally under Chinese sovereignty, Hong Kong maintains its own extradition agreement with the United States. And if Snowden is to avoid being sent back to the United States (Republican lawmakers are already calling for his extradition), he may have to convince a judge that he is being persecuted for his political beliefs.

In doing so, he is taking a huge gamble. In 1997, the British government handed over sovereign control of Hong Kong to China, and just prior to the transfer the Clinton administration negotiated -- with the consent of Beijing -- an updated extradition treaty with Hong Kong. That agreement includes a provision allowing either side to deny an extradition "if the offence of which that person is accused or was convicted is an offence of a political character."

Crucially, the agreement between the United States and Hong Kong does not define what constitutes a political crime, and according to Julian Ku, a professor of international law at Hofstra University, there is scant precedent in Hong Kong to indicate how its courts would rule on the question of whether Snowden's prosecution would be "of a political nature."

"Obviously, he's in a better position than if he had committed murder, but [the legal strategy] is not necessarily a winner for him," Ku says.

The United States and Hong Kong have a long-standing and successful relationship in exchanging suspects. If U.S. prosecutors and diplomats are able to cast his indictment as an ordinary criminal prosecution, the courts are likely to approve his extradition.

The Snowden leaks have now been referred to the Justice Department, and U.S. prosecutors have several options available to them. According to Ku, prosecutors may avoid charging Snowden under the Espionage Act -- which could be considered a political prosecution by courts in Hong Kong -- and indict him under a different statute.

Among the crimes listed on the U.S.-Hong Kong agreement as within the bounds of extradition, one offense in particular stands out: "the unlawful use of computers."

"My best guess is that if the U.S. government makes the request and they're smart about it, the courts have a hard time finding it as a political offense," Ku says.

In short, Snowden's legal strategy depends on convincing a judge that he is the victim of political persecution, a legal strategy that has little precedent in Hong Kong (Reuters, which notes that Hong Kong authorities can hold Snowden for 60 days while U.S. officials prepare a formal extradition request, reports that Snowden could also argue that his alleged criminal act is not considered a crime in both countries). Taken together with the fact that Snowden could have fled to a country without an extradition treaty with the United States -- or followed in the footsteps of Julian Assange and sought asylum in Ecuador -- Snowden's decision is extremely perplexing.

Snowden's flight to Hong Kong has added a geopolitical dimension to his case and sparked speculation in the media that his fate will be decided by Beijing. Unfortunately, this speculation may be based on a misreading of the extradition agreement. While the treaty includes language that allows both Hong Kong and the United States to decline extradition for reasons relating to "the defence, foreign affairs or essential public interest or policy" of China and the United States, it appears to state that this exception only applies to the extradition of American citizens to Hong Kong and Chinese citizens to the United States (see Article 3).

This language has been used to imply that China has the ability to bulldoze Hong Kong's court system, but the island's judiciary has consistently demonstrated a remarkable degree of independence, even after China's assumption of sovereignty over the territory. Not only is Hong Kong's judicial system modeled on the British system, but many of its judges are British holdovers.

The Clinton administration also expressly negotiated a new treaty with Hong Kong prior to the handover in order to maintain an important operational aspect of the island's sovereignty. In a letter to the Senate introducing the treaty, then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright explained that extradition decisions would be made by Hong Kong's courts, not Beijing.

According to Ku, that promise has largely been delivered on, and there has been very little if any interference from Beijing on issues relating to extradition. Still, the temptation to interpret Snowden's potential extradition as a great power standoff in the making remains. Here's Josh Marshall with a nice summary of that argument:

[T]he decision to go to China inevitably colors his decision and sets up what could be a very uncomfortable diplomatic stand-off. I've seen people linking to the current US-Hong Kong extradition treaty. Call me naive but I think this is going to come down to how Beijing wants to play this. If they don't want a fight over this, Snowden's toast. If they like the optics of it, I don't think it matters what that extradition treaty says. China's a big enough player and the US has enough other fish to fry with the Chinese, that the US is not going to put the bilateral relationship on the line over this guy. And the Chinese might relish granting asylum to an American running from the claws of US ‘state repression'.

But before we get ahead of ourselves, consider a recent instance of China getting involved in Hong Kong's affairs. Late last year, Hong Kong's supreme court referred a case to Beijing involving a dispute over whether domestic workers should have residency rights there, launching a hail of criticism from liberals in Hong Kong. (Note also that China did not choose to get involved in the case but that it was referred to authorities in Beijing -- another unlikely step that, according to Ku, would probably have to be taken in order for Chinese officials to get involved in the Snowden case.)

Just as China is trying to repair relations with the United States, would it really want to poke Washington in the eye? Doing so could also provoke anger in Hong Kong -- and all in exchange for what might ultimately prove a hollow diplomatic victory and a stale source of information. That doesn't sound like smart politics.

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delft

Brigadier
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

This case is part of a series of reports on large scale invasion by the US in the privacy of all non-Americans. The US has access to all transactions of SWIFT, the Belgium based money transfer system. The US demands, and receives, excessive information on passengers of airlines, despite objections by the European parliament. The US president claims that the US only try to intercept all communications by non-Americans. And now it appears that surveillance of its citizens by the US government exceeded the practise of the late STASI.
 

MwRYum

Major
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Whether Snowden can get asylum in Hong Kong will depend on the SAR government in Hong Kong and not the PRC government in Beijing. Hong Kong and the US does have a extradition treaty that includes "computer crimes". I don't know if he can argue for asylum on political grounds.



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Or...if Snowden is HVT enough for a snatch & grab, what'd stop the US from sending a JSOC strike team to track him down, then bag & tag him, and before the CNN air the news of the raid Snowden is on his way to the darkest corner of Gitmo? If Snowden is wise enough in spycraft, he'd avoid the big hotels in HK but choose to stay in guesthouses, which lacks network security for outsiders to hack into, and usually located in areas that has plenty of exit routes which presents difficulty in terms of containment.

In any case, it all comes down to how bad the US wants him in, dead or alive?
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Or...if Snowden is HVT enough for a snatch & grab, what'd stop the US from sending a JSOC strike team to track him down, then bag & tag him, and before the CNN air the news of the raid Snowden is on his way to the darkest corner of Gitmo? If Snowden is wise enough in spycraft, he'd avoid the big hotels in HK but choose to stay in guesthouses, which lacks network security for outsiders to hack into, and usually located in areas that has plenty of exit routes which presents difficulty in terms of containment.

In any case, it all comes down to how bad the US wants him in, dead or alive?

He is not that important. JSOC has better things to do with its time then to create a major international incident over some self important 29 year old high school drop out turned contractor turned leak turned would be defector, this is not a super spy this is not a field agent this is not a sixties spy flick this is a whistle blower who found something big and leaked it but not because it was for the good of the American people but because he wanted to be on CNN he wanted the Falcon and the Snowman 2: Snowden's story. To be a major hollywood blockbuster.
Fact in the last three decades their have been dozens of whistle blowers on major scandals in the US government, have they been killed? Depending on the case they have either been offered whistleblower protection or in worst case run through a legal trial and sent to serve time in a minimal security prison with or without a nasty fine. This may also have ended like that except he ran to China. That raises eye brows. Snowden is also supposedly holding data on American intel cover agents, locations and names . Now that comes from a video he made now really tell me again that this guy is a hero?
Look I dont like the Government knowing what is in my E mail and who I call, its a big violation of the fourth amendment. Blowing the whistle is needed from time to time but if you are going to out do it the right way. If he outed the programme and then went to congress to testify he would have had protection. Running to Hong Kong changes him from objector to possible traitor. And word is he is vanished again. His cash is running out and he if does have other goodies how long until the bidding starts?
 

MwRYum

Major
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

He is not that important. JSOC has better things to do with its time then to create a major international incident over some self important 29 year old high school drop out turned contractor turned leak turned would be defector, this is not a super spy this is not a field agent this is not a sixties spy flick this is a whistle blower who found something big and leaked it but not because it was for the good of the American people but because he wanted to be on CNN he wanted the Falcon and the Snowman 2: Snowden's story. To be a major hollywood blockbuster.
Fact in the last three decades their have been dozens of whistle blowers on major scandals in the US government, have they been killed? Depending on the case they have either been offered whistleblower protection or in worst case run through a legal trial and sent to serve time in a minimal security prison with or without a nasty fine. This may also have ended like that except he ran to China. That raises eye brows. Snowden is also supposedly holding data on American intel cover agents, locations and names . Now that comes from a video he made now really tell me again that this guy is a hero?
Look I dont like the Government knowing what is in my E mail and who I call, its a big violation of the fourth amendment. Blowing the whistle is needed from time to time but if you are going to out do it the right way. If he outed the programme and then went to congress to testify he would have had protection. Running to Hong Kong changes him from objector to possible traitor. And word is he is vanished again. His cash is running out and he if does have other goodies how long until the bidding starts?

So it all comes down to how much he's worth to everyone and anyone, what other stuff he got in his bag that can fetch money, or put a bullet in his head (or the closest equivalent) would the cheapest solution to the US, then?
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

So it all comes down to how much he's worth to everyone and anyone, what other stuff he got in his bag that can fetch money, or put a bullet in his head (or the closest equivalent) would the cheapest solution to the US, then?

Offing him is off the table. If he is found dead the headache in Washington turns migraine. Even if he walks into the middle me the street in broad daylight and makes friends with a Hong Kong city bus. The US would take the blame. For the US best is to play this straight. Pull those suspected of being comprised and empty the safe houses. Lodge protest and request extradition, make sure any charges brought are limited to avoid something like the death penalty so the Hong kong government and Beijing (if you dont think they are involved you gotta be kidding) cant pull "humanitarian grounds". They can seek him but then all they can do is observation no black bag.
 

MwRYum

Major
Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Offing him is off the table. If he is found dead the headache in Washington turns migraine. Even if he walks into the middle me the street in broad daylight and makes friends with a Hong Kong city bus. The US would take the blame. For the US best is to play this straight. Pull those suspected of being comprised and empty the safe houses. Lodge protest and request extradition, make sure any charges brought are limited to avoid something like the death penalty so the Hong kong government and Beijing (if you dont think they are involved you gotta be kidding) cant pull "humanitarian grounds". They can seek him but then all they can do is observation no black bag.

The news reports so far pointed out one interesting thing: due to his fear of being spotted by surveillance, Snowden have been largely reliant on room services and because of that he's close to reaching his credit limit...now that might mean a few things:
1. Credit card transactions leaves a long trail of electronic breadcrumbs, so by now the CIA and NSA should already know which hotel, if not down to which room in that hotel, that Snowden is residing now;
2. Unless Snowden is carrying a big bag full of Benjamins, or a financial backer, he'll eventually go starving, broke and have to turn himself in, one way or the other.

That said, the US is pretty much already got their man on a leash, in a way of speaking...?
 
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