071 LPD thread

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Wow I did not know the inside compartment was double decker! Screen shots from 6:46 secs and 10:12 secs

I think we have really been under estimating the Type 071 LPD

In addition to 4 helos and 4 LCAC I think they could fit 10 IFV in the lower and upper compartments each that's 20 IFV

Each LCAC can hold 2-3 IFV each, so 4 x 3 = 12 IFV by LCAC and 20 by swimming or another sortie on the LCAC, very good

Note this is the compartment in front of the well deck

 

[MwRYum]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

CSIC recently showed a LHD design for the Turkish tender, it could land 8 helos, weights 30,000 +tons and more than 1,100 marines and has a well deck

No doubt China can build these LHD question is when

But the fact that they haven't actually built one before would make their case not as strong as other contenders. The Turks won't like to be the guinea pig...

 

[Lion]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

But the fact that they haven't actually built one before would make their case not as strong as other contenders. The Turks won't like to be the guinea pig...

Probably PLAN really wants to save cost by waiting for a foreign tender and then start building the domestic and foreign LHD together to further bring down the cost per unit.

As for turkey tender, no country likes to be guinea pig but no country will reject getting the best buck out of your money. China maybe tempting them with a very attractive prices just like how she toy around with other tender for Turkish air defence project by slashing its HQ-9 to a very low price.

With Turkey and China having more military cooperation like launching spy satelite for Turkish military. Turkish maybe more willing to use Chinese hardware.

 

[tphuang]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Probably PLAN really wants to save cost by waiting for a foreign tender and then start building the domestic and foreign LHD together to further bring down the cost per unit.

Can you name one case in PLAN's recent expansion that this was the case?

 

[Lion]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Can you name one case in PLAN's recent expansion that this was the case?

Then may I ask you how do you expect China shipbuilding company to win the bid since someone raise a very good enquiry about China not building a single LHD before and expect others to be the guine pig for China military shipbuilding? Or maybe you think china shipbuilding actually tender the bid for fun? I do not think turkey is just looking at prices. Quality and the risk sharing plus support is also something they will be looking at it for the bid. If PLAN decide to do a serial production of a similiar batch of LHD for foreign and domestic use. It will raise the confident for the foreign buyer.

 

[plawolf]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Then may I ask you how do you expect China shipbuilding company to win the bid since someone raise a very good enquiry about China not building a single LHD before and expect others to be the guine pig for China military shipbuilding? Or maybe you think china shipbuilding actually tender the bid for fun? I do not think turkey is just looking at prices. Quality and the risk sharing plus support is also something they will be looking at it for the bid. If PLAN decide to do a serial production of a similiar batch of LHD for foreign and domestic use. It will raise the confident for the foreign buyer.

What makes you think the PLAN cares about the profitability of shipyards that have nothing to do with them? The PLAN will base its acquisition decision on their needs and not how to sell more kit abroad.

Just look at the JF17. A big PLAAF purchase would massively boost its export potential, but that hasn't happens has it?

The fact that China has no previous experience with LHDs would have bee factored into the contract pricing for the Turkish bid. If Chinese shipyards had prior experience, then they could have commanded a better price with fatter margins.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Can you name one case in PLAN's recent expansion that this was the case?

There aren't any. In fact, the only similar case tends to say the opposite.

With Pakistan and the F-22, China could have offered the Type 054A design (first of class was launched in September 2006) which they were just bringing out at the time of the contract and when the first construction started (the contract was signed for those first four F-22Ps in 2006 and construction started then) and this same arguement could have been used to say that the PRC wanted to reduce their unit costs by providing a revised Type 054A design to the Pakistanis.

But they did not. Instead, they offered them a smaller hull with less capability.

The Pakistan Navy would have benefited from a 054A sized hull, even if it did not include all of the PLAN's systems most modern. It would have allowed for expansion and modernization over the life of the vessel which they will not have with the F-22 hull...and the Chinese yards would have had even more Type 054A work.

But the PRC did not do it. They instead built the better design for themselves and Pakistan settled for the F-22...which is not necessarily a bad vessel for their needs, just not as good at the Type 054A.

Rumors are that Pakistan has either ordered, or is comtemplating ordering, an improved F-22P frigate now (some wanting to call oit the F-23P), but it still not a Type 054A or a direct derivitive therof.

I believe the PLAN ultimately will have an LPH or LHD sized vessel...but when they do, like the Type 054A, the Type 052C and 052D, it will be a vessel for the PLAN and probably no one else.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

There aren't any. In fact, the only similar case tends to say the opposite.

With Pakistan and the F-22, China could have offered the Type 054A design (first of class was launched in September 2006) which they were just bringing out at the time of the contract and when the first construction started (the contract was signed for those first four F-22Ps in 2006 and construction started then) and this same arguement could have been used to say that the PRC wanted to reduce their unit costs by providing a revised Type 054A design to the Pakistanis.

But they did not. Instead, they offered them a smaller hull with less capability.

The Pakistan Navy would have benefited from a 054A sized hull, even if it did not include all of the PLAN's systems most modern. It would have allowed for expansion and modernization over the life of the vessel which they will not have with the F-22 hull...and the Chinese yards would have had even more Type 054A work.

.

Yes the first Type 054A was even launched before the 1st F22P was laid down

Type 054A inco-operates certain stealth features, it's 3500-400 tons, has a 32 cell VLS and would require considerable more investment and ship building capability than the F22P does, therefore beyond the scope of what KSEW would really like

4 F22P were $750 million, it's a modern hull, 2500-3000ton, brings much more capability than what Pakistan had previously operating, and for that price you would get used older FFG with less capability from a Western source

It was always going to be a ToT project and therefore a improved 053H3 provided the best solution for the best price, I mean 4 Type 054A would be a expensive over kill especially when 6 Type 21 FFG are needed to be replaced in the future, so it would be either small number of advanced FFG or a higher number of less sophisticated FFG, PN went for the latter

In future it can be fitted with better hull sonar, towed array sonar, FL-3000N and more modern systems, overall a good addition for PN

Btw I stand corrected, I said it was CSIC, it was actually CSOC, here is the article from Janes

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

From Janes defence


China unveils new details of LHD ahead of Turkish decision

Robert Foster
* *Abu Dhabi

The China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Co (CSOC) has disclosed new information on the first landing helicopter dock (LHD) design it is submitting for Turkey's LHD requirement.

CSOC has established a partnership with Turkey's DESAN shipyard for the competition, which could be decided this year. The design was first revealed in model form at the Defense & Security 2012 exhibition in Bangkok in early March 2012. Company officials provided IHS Jane's with more data at the recent IDEX show in Abu Dhabi.

Named the 20000T Landing Patrol Dock, the vessel is 211 m long, has a beam of 32.6 m, a height of 26.8 m and a displacement of between 20,000 and 22,000 tonnes. Powered by four diesel engines, it has a range of 7,000 miles at 16 kt with an endurance of 30 days. The ship is double-hulled to enhance survivability, and can accommodate up to 1,068 personnel and eight helicopters, with hangar space for four. The model indicates it will have a well deck.

Turkey's navy has sought an LHD since the 1990s but the country's Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) did not issue requests for tenders until February 2010, with three shipyards replying in May 2011. RMK Marine submitted an indigenous design, while the SEDEF shipyard collaborated with Spain's Navantia to propose a version of its Juan Carlos -class LHD.

The DESAN shipyard's offer was initially reported to have been based on either a South Korean or Chinese design. The selection decision was expected in early January 2013 after previously being delayed to give all bidders time to submit proposals; however, it has since been put on hold again and the decision is now unlikely to be made before March.

CSOC officials stressed that the LHD design was for export only and would not comment on possible LHD designs for the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). During a Chinese TV interview in November 2012, Admiral Yin Zhou stated China's future LHDs would be much larger, potentially approaching a displacement of 40,000 tonnes, similar in size to the US Navy's LHDs.

While China has yet to build a LHD, it has constructed three Type 071 ( Yuzhao -class) landing platform dock (LPD) amphibious assault ships, and offered a version of this design to Malaysia in 2006.

Related Articles

Chinese shipbuilder unveils possible Type 081 LHD design, ihs.com/janes, 23.03.12

Copyright © IHS Global Limited, 2013

 

[Lion]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

What makes you think the PLAN cares about the profitability of shipyards that have nothing to do with them? The PLAN will base its acquisition decision on their needs and not how to sell more kit abroad.

Just look at the JF17. A big PLAAF purchase would massively boost its export potential, but that hasn't happens has it?

The fact that China has no previous experience with LHDs would have bee factored into the contract pricing for the Turkish bid. If Chinese shipyards had prior experience, then they could have commanded a better price with fatter margins.

I think you have mix up profitability of shipyard vs frugality of PLAN. PLAN indeed has an increase of budget but they still need to maximise their money. If the Turkish LHD build together with PLAN version. Cost per unit will definitely goes down. Nothing to do with shipyard profit. In fact, a win win situation for shipyard and PLAN. But PLAN definitely can save more money. I believe if Turkish bid failed. They will still go ahead with building PLAN version but price per unit will be higher.

As for JF-17, that's a terrible example. They have J-10, why would they go for JF-17 but does PLAN needs LHD? Yes, they need it.