Z-20 (all variants) thread

[kroko]

then top the helo layer cake with that joint sino ruso 33 heavy

I had already forgot about that joint built helicopter program. I read somewhere that the chinese werent much willing for it, and that it was the russians who were pushing for it. Any recent news about it?

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Preux never said anything about China buying the Merling or Kestrel, he said the Chinese might need something IN THE CLASS of the Kestrel.

Right Which means either developing their own or buying abroad. UTC got it's arse handed to it when it admitted to selling engine codes So I don't think they could get the S92.
AW101 might be a option but the ties of The known Chinese Helicopter builders are closer to Eurocopter then Agusta and Added emph of the Kestral Was US made engines.
The Chinese Would want to build their own choppers So the Complexity of Getting NH90 with it's multiple makers would rule that out.
there is the Eurocopter EC 725 Caracal As a option but it's got a smaller cargo load then the Super Ferlons. Super puma is smaller still, There was the Eurocopter Heavy Transport Helicopter but that is in the frozen category A heavier Chopper and and the last word I had on it was that they had partnered with Boeing so Unless the Obama Admin pulls the arms Embargo, That is a No go.
The Russians are selling updated Mi 8's in the Form of the Mi38 but The Chinese seem to be trying to move away from buying Russian.

So Either build there own, Or co op. And the AC313 is the only new Bird I see in the class.

 

[Preux]

Z-8s are getting old, and we don't see any indications of modernized Z-8s/AC313s being produced as of yet.

Optimally a modernized Z-8 would be in the class of the AW101 or S-92, but my point stands. The PLA don't have enough helicoptes in the weight class of Z-8s, and existing supre frelons are not only aging but less capable than foreign counterparts without a significant modernization (which we have seen no indications of). I don't think we disagree on the point that PLA needs their 13-14 ton helicopters, but instead on whether existing Z-8s can fill that role, and whether future variants of super frelons will be enough.

Here're some 'indications'. The modernised Z-8 exists in the AC313. It is being produced. The point isn't whether China has enough helicopters, evidently it does not. The point is is it worth a fresh programme from the start to produce something with no clear advantage over an existing design finally entering service in numbers.

 

[Preux]

Right Which means either developing their own or buying abroad. UTC got it's arse handed to it when it admitted to selling engine codes So I don't think they could get the S92.
AW101 might be a option but the ties of The known Chinese Helicopter builders are closer to Eurocopter then Agusta and Added emph of the Kestral Was US made engines.
The Chinese Would want to build their own choppers So the Complexity of Getting NH90 with it's multiple makers would rule that out.
there is the Eurocopter EC 725 Caracal As a option but it's got a smaller cargo load then the Super Ferlons. Super puma is smaller still, There was the Eurocopter Heavy Transport Helicopter but that is in the frozen category A heavier Chopper and and the last word I had on it was that they had partnered with Boeing so Unless the Obama Admin pulls the arms Embargo, That is a No go.
The Russians are selling updated Mi 8's in the Form of the Mi38 but The Chinese seem to be trying to move away from buying Russian.

So Either build there own, Or co op. And the AC313 is the only new Bird I see in the class.

Buzz has it that that'd be the Z-18. It remains to be seen in _what_ class the Z-18 falls. Kestrel? Super Stallion?

The Z-20 which is what this discussion is about is also divided, the model suggests it might be a Kestrel/ Merlin family bird, but all previous indications suggested a Blackhawk.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Blitzo]

Here're some 'indications'. The modernised Z-8 exists in the AC313. It is being produced. The point isn't whether China has enough helicopters, evidently it does not. The point is is it worth a fresh programme from the start to produce something with no clear advantage over an existing design finally entering service in numbers.

I see the AEW Z-8, with the platform itself clearly having been modernized, but that just shows they have the capability to produce similarly modernized assault transport variant, there are no indications of producing such a type as of yet.
The AC313 is the civilian bird, again, not the military plane. I too assume they'll come out with a modernized Z-8 for the PLA, but they're taking their sweet time about it.

My original point was that an AW101 equivalent would benefit the PLA and a modernized Z-8 would be in that class, so I'm failing to see why that statement was challenged in the first place. I wasn't advocating a fresh programme necessarily, if the qualm laid there.

 

[tphuang]

I see the AEW Z-8, with the platform itself clearly having been modernized, but that just shows they have the capability to produce similarly modernized assault transport variant, there are no indications of producing such a type as of yet.
The AC313 is the civilian bird, again, not the military plane. I too assume they'll come out with a modernized Z-8 for the PLA, but they're taking their sweet time about it.

My original point was that an AW101 equivalent would benefit the PLA and a modernized Z-8 would be in that class, so I'm failing to see why that statement was challenged in the first place. I wasn't advocating a fresh programme necessarily, if the qualm laid there.

the production rate for Z-8 has actually gone up a lot in the recent years.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

check the Z-8K/KH/B section
They can produce probably 2 a month now. I'm actually not trying to be funny here. This is quite an achievement compared to the previous Z-8 production rate.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

I think We have all been Chasing our own Tails.
Let's clear the air a bit and Step back before we end up giving each other a argument that we are all agreeing with but not realizing we are agreeing. Like two people Arguing over if they should have a "hero" or a "sub" for lunch.
We have all I think, heard little of progress on the Z20 so we are all looking for models and Images that fit the bill of a new chopper.
Then Came The CGI posted by Mace.
It got us all looking, It's a medium heavy lift Chopper. Trouble is as as you Bltizo and I pointed out it's two close to the AW 101 family In particular The VH71. Even has the Same paint Job.
From there I think we all started spinning our own wheels.
Mace then posted a second model. That model looks a lot closer to the Super Ferlon Family with the same nose ( although missing the radar "nipple") and with a altered upper structure. but Identical body and Tail.
A Chopper in the 14 to 15 ton class is a need.
I brought Up the AC313 because It's a Modernized Z8 type. Now Yes it's a Civy chopper but when you think about it other then Dedicated scouts like the OH1 Ninja or dedicated Attack choppers like the AH64 Apache Just about every military transport and cargo chopper could be rebuilt into a Civil model and Vice Versa.
I mean Strip the armor, loose the Gun ports change some Avionics And it could work Pararescue, Oil platforms, VIP transport, law enforcement even Sky Crane.
Add those to the AC313 and would be a Z8 right?

 

[shen]

How did Eurocopter get around the sanction and is allowed to work on EC175/Z-15 with China? and working on a 1500kw engine together for a 7 ton copter? It is clearly intended for military application. P&W get slapped with a fine for working with China. But European countries don't seem to mind Eurocopter working with China under a very thin disguise of civilian cooperation.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

the sanctions that hit UTC are an American embargo not UN so as long as they leave out American parts they can do as they please.

 

[shen]

the sanctions that hit UTC are an American embargo not UN so as long as they leave out American parts they can do as they please.

There is separate EU embargo in place.
Check wikipedia, can't post link yet.
Will probably collapse soon, and very porous even now it seems. Wonder how long the US embargo can go on after the EU lift theirs.