Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

solarz

Brigadier
i don't know why people keep thinking locate/track a CVBG in west pacific is a easy task under combat condition. the 1st thing US will due in the event of war is to eliminate/jam surveillance equipment that can detect/track CVBG. do think US will allow UAV to approach a CVG within 100nm without do something about it? even if you detect it, the CVG still need to be tracked in REAL TIME for the ASBM to work. if the missile even off by 1 degree its the difference between miss and hit, so the whole thing has to be done in REAL Time, not something thats easy to do.

A CVBG is much bigger than a UAV, so by the time a CVBG can detect a tiny UAV, that UAV will long since have detected the CVBG. Once the CVBG's general location is known, satellites can be pointed to that location to track it with precision.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
A CVBG is much bigger than a UAV, so by the time a CVBG can detect a tiny UAV, that UAV will long since have detected the CVBG. Once the CVBG's general location is known, satellites can be pointed to that location to track it with precision.

right i suppose US satelite, E3, AWAC, radar from support ship are just there for shows. you got look at the entire US asset, AWAC from carrier/land/others place will continue search for threat, so does the support group and other US assets. heck if Japan/Skorea detect/track chinese UAV etc 1st, they will likely send that info to US. There are many asset in the west pacific for US navy to rely on, not just their CVBG surveillance, but from their bases in the area, support ships and allies. However china ASBM has to rely on satelite for det/tracking, if the war is imminent i would think the 1st target for the US military is the chinese support equipments(such as satelite) for the ASBM+asking its allies/bases in the region for intel
 

solarz

Brigadier
right i suppose US satelite, E3, AWAC, radar from support ship are just there for shows. you got look at the entire US asset, AWAC from carrier/land/others place will continue search for threat, so does the support group and other US assets. heck if Japan/Skorea detect/track chinese UAV etc 1st, they will likely send that info to US. There are many asset in the west pacific for US navy to rely on, not just their CVBG surveillance, but from their bases in the area, support ships and allies. However china ASBM has to rely on satelite for det/tracking, if the war is imminent i would think the 1st target for the US military is the chinese support equipments(such as satelite) for the ASBM+asking its allies/bases in the region for intel

An E3 is a big, expensive target. A UAV is small, cheap and plentiful. Ultimately, any asset the CVBG deploys will betray its position, so it's just a question of how much damage the CVBG can inflict before being killed by AShBMs.

China is not going to sit back and do nothing while the US destroys its support equipment. The fact is, the days of the US being able to hit China with impunity is over. The best we can say is that they'd be going into a fair fight.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The only thing that might make it any where near a CVBG is a fruit fly. The radar power around a american carrier group is massive you have Anti air cruisers, destroyers, E3, and individual fighters all looking for just that kind of track. A scout uav will be killed long before it could have identified the target.
 

solarz

Brigadier
The only thing that might make it any where near a CVBG is a fruit fly. The radar power around a american carrier group is massive you have Anti air cruisers, destroyers, E3, and individual fighters all looking for just that kind of track. A scout uav will be killed long before it could have identified the target.

Oh please, why don't you just say the US CVBG is invincible while you're at it?
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I was very careful in my wording. I said any scout uav would be killed before it could id the target. now you should be careful in your wording to. google "taffy 3" to understand one of the flaws in your logic. its history world war 2. a japanese commander sent his full force thinking he was taking on a full enemy force was really fighting a smaller picket force.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I was very careful in my wording. I said any scout uav would be killed before it could id the target. now you should be careful in your wording to. google "taffy 3" to understand one of the flaws in your logic. its history world war 2. a japanese commander sent his full force thinking he was taking on a full enemy force was really fighting a smaller picket force.

No, you are just making a baseless speculation on the capability of a US CVBG.

Modern battles are won either through technological advantage or maneuvers. We can argue about technology convincingly, but it's pointless arguing about maneuvers, which is what you are doing with your "taffy 3" example.

If you think the US can destroy squadrons of Chinese UAVs without the Chinese side even knowing from where the attacks are coming from, then you might as well start waving a tiny flag.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Now who is waving a flag? I am saying that the chinese are going to find that the US navy has spent decades developing the ability to hunt in bound threats to the carriers. Among those threats long range anti ship cruise missiles, missiles that happen to be roughly the same size as most small uavs and a lot faster to. Mind you the kind of uav needed to patrol for a carrier group would need to be bigger then that, in addiction that ability can be deployed on its own making false positives. On top of which even unrelated uav downings would compound the issue the pacific is a huge ocean lots of room for manouverability. now stop putting words in my mouth.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Now who is waving a flag? I am saying that the chinese are going to find that the US navy has spent decades developing the ability to hunt in bound threats to the carriers. Among those threats long range anti ship cruise missiles, missiles that happen to be roughly the same size as most small uavs and a lot faster to. Mind you the kind of uav needed to patrol for a carrier group would need to be bigger then that, in addiction that ability can be deployed on its own making false positives. On top of which even unrelated uav downings would compound the issue the pacific is a huge ocean lots of room for manouverability. now stop putting words in my mouth.

What you're saying makes no sense. Any kind of detection ability can make false positives. I could argue just as easily that the US is "addicted" to satellite intel.

Further, just because the USN has "spent decades developing the ability to hunt in bound threats to the carriers" doesn't mean their defenses are at all effective against specific Chinese threats. In order to argue that, you'll need to demonstrate evidence that US CVBG can kill squads of UAVs outside of their (the UAV's) detection range, or that it can neutralize long range AShBMs. Again, I could just as easily argue that the PLA has spent decades developing the ability to neutralize CVBGs.
 

leibowitz

Junior Member
The easiest way, by far, to nail a CVBG isn't through SIGINT or ELINT methods... it's to hit it while it's in port or steaming along known shipping lines; i.e., good old-fashioned HUMINT.

What you don't realize is that first, a CVBG can run completely 'silent' (e.g. no radar or comms EM emissions) for its entire 6-month deployment cruise, simply listening to other sensors in the US global defense grid. USN CV doctrine and training ops have evolved to the point where a CVBG can steam up to an opposing coastline and run deep penetration strikes without making a single radio transmission for the last 1000 nm of the journey... between all those dozens of helos and planes and 6-10 combat and support vessels.

In that case, UAVs have to use visual methods to find the CVBG. This limits their scan range to about 6nm in either direction, assuming they're flying at sea level in normal sea states. Of course, if they were flying at a super high altitude, they would have a much larger search radius, but they would also be much easier to find by the ELINT suite on E-2D AWACS and/or the carrier's own CAP.

Now, even if the UAVs are sent out--e.g., China/Russia knows there's a CVBG in the area--then there are also a variety of ways to spoof 'em.

For example: the CVBG finds a large civilian radar signature, like an oil tanker or cargo ship or passenger liner, and when the air wing takes off, it first vectors out to that radar signature at wavetop height (below the minimum detection altitude of OTH radars) before climbing to standard cruising altitude, and when they're done bombing or performing air superiority missions, they fly back to that big ship and then vector at low altitude to the CVN. Sure, this cuts down on the range of the aircraft, but what it does is it makes that civilian ship look like an aircraft carrier to the opponent--it'll look like a big radar signature launching and landing aircraft. It's basically baiting the opponent into killing a bunch of civilians, or at the very least wasting a sub or UAV to go and check it out--a sub or UAV that can then be easily killed itself as it wades into a preplanned trap.

Another example: the CVBG baits the opponent into searching the wrong area of ocean based on the path of its incoming and outgoing flight vectors. Basically, you do aerial buddy-refueling of a few fighters, run them in and out along a triangular path that, by the listed range on their fuel tanks, implies the carrier is hundreds of nm away from its actual location.

Yet another example: say the CVBG has been found by a UAV, and the UAV gets detected and shot down. Now the Chinese/Russian side has a snapshot of the CVBG location--not a real-time track, so they'll need to sortie out a regiment of land-based strike aircraft (likely J-20s, Su-34s, or Tu-22M3s) to the last known location of the CVBG. This usually takes about two hours, assuming the CVBG is operating three or four hundred nm away from the coast and five or six hundred nm away from the nearest airbase. So then in those two hours, the CVBG can run a pair of DDGs 60nm down the threat axis (e.g. towards the airbase) as a picket, leave a CG and a DDG at its original location, set up a combat air patrol flanking the expected flight vector of the J-20 regiment, and sail another 60nm with a lone DDG escort in an off-axis direction. (e.g. diagonally away from the airbase) Then, when the J-20 regiment arrives and pops up 150nm away for a radar peek to launch their YJ-12 anti-ship missiles, the picketing DDGs can spam the area with SAMs from the front at the same time the air patrol swarms the J-20s from behind--as close to a turkey shoot as modern air combat allows--and the anti-ship missiles, set to go and sink a big ship in the target area, lock on to a CG boasting 128 VLS tubes loaded with anti-missile-missiles. In effect, the entire J-20 regiment is wasted and the CVN is never even threatened. And the best thing about it is that the USN trains to run this entire maneuver in radio silence--which means the opponent has no idea it's coming. And, yes, if US ELINT/SIGINT (satellites) or HUMINT (spies/cyber) detect that those planes aren't taking off for whatever reason, the CVBG can cancel its maneuver or reorient itself if the planes are vectoring out from an unexpected airbase.

Of course, these tactics themselves can all be counteracted by good training and coordination between the PLAAF, PLAN, and 2nd Artillery, and better ELINT/SIGINT capabilities. It's not a one-sided affair at all, and yes, the DF-21D and J-20 have made things harder for the USN in very uncomfortable ways--but those weapons are by no means the game-changers and magic bullets proponents would like to believe.

China needs to learn to use these weapons by upping the annual training regimen's quantity (flight hours, sim hours, deployment hours, total # of exercises), quality (real-time combat conditions with large doses of mindfuckery on both sides, and preferably involving large numbers of aircraft and ground assets to stress-test C4ISR systems), and internationalization (e.g. run these exercises with partners like Russia on a more than once-per-year basis). Combine that with 5th-gen fighters, ASBMs, transport/tanker/AWACS, and advanced sub/surface/naval air assets, and the PLA will be on track to challenge or even usurp military dominance in the Western Pacific. Until then, no dice.
 
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