Movies in General

ABC78

Junior Member
I have to agree with you 100% on this. All the other factors aside the biggest one is cultural. 'Going to the movies' is almost as American as apple pie. Like an american rite of passage. That's what people do. young, old, rich poor and everyone in between Americans have been 'going to the movies' for almost 100 years. It doesn;t matter with the invention of the VCR, DVD and now streaming videos.. movie watching in the theatres to me is like pen and paper. It can never be replaced regardless of the sophistication of replacement technologies.

Out of curiosity does the gender imbalance and massive lonely singles(male and female) factor into this situation. Because when I'm not seeing someone I go to the movies a lot less and if I do go to the movies by myself it has to be really worth it. Cheesy romantic comedies are not going to cut it.

I've never been to a movie theater in China so I don't know what that scene is like.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Out of curiosity does the gender imbalance and massive lonely singles(male and female) factor into this situation. Because when I'm not seeing someone I go to the movies a lot less and if I do go to the movies by myself it has to be really worth it. Cheesy romantic comedies are not going to cut it.

I've never been to a movie theater in China so I don't know what that scene is like.

huh? you only go to movies with the opposite sex? what about family, friends, roomates etc??
 

ABC78

Junior Member
Not as often as I use to many of my friends have gotten married or are in serious relationships and I don't want to be a third wheel. Also a bunch of them watch movies by other means.

Plus the last couple of years Hollywood has put out a bunch of movies I don't care for and when it comes to foreign movies you end up waiting for the dvd anyway.

Also I'm a big TV person tv programing has really gotten better and has stories and charcters that I find more interesting to follow.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I saw Zero Dark Thirty last night. That was a very good movie. Not sure how much of it was the truth. Some of the accounts given from No Easy Day seem to confirm some of it.

I loathed ZDT, might as well have been called Zero Dark Fifty for all the torture-porn it had it in.

It was undisputedly a well produced drama that made very compelling watching, but I just found the entire underlying message extremely repellant and ugly. The entire film might as well have been a white wash propaganda flick for the CIA and it's rendition programme.

There was not a shred of remorse about the world wide torture dungeons the CIA ran, and there was even some righteous indignation by the torture master supreme about the programme being shut down as if it was that was done just to inconvenience him. It also make the CIA look pretty damn stupid and inept, because they seemed pretty much dead in the water and clueless about how to proceed after the 'detainee programme' was shut down, as it torture was the only way the CIA knew how to gather intell. If I was a member of the CIA, I would have found that highly insulting.

If there was one massage the film was purposely and carefully crafted to convey, it was that the torture programme worked, and that every single person who was subjected to it deserved everything they got. There was no ambiguity, no doubt, just a barely restrained glorification and gleeful celebration of causing suffering to helpless people in the name of payback (why else does anyone think they ran those 9/11 tapes right at the start? It was to get the American audience's blood up so they wouldn't question the morality of the gruesome torture scenes to come). It was something you'd expect from a Tarantino revenge movie, and maybe it wasn't a coincidence that the torture master supreme look more than a little like Tarantino himself.

For a film Bigelow and producers were flaunting as 'documentary like', it was a complete inversion of the actual facts and a shameless attempt to rewrite history, because every CIA, Pentagon and White House official who has ever spoken of the mission to kill OBL, on or off the record, has been consistent throughout that torture was ineffective and did nothing to lead to the eventual death of OBL.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I don't think the movie was about sending a message so being for or against is appropriately up to the audience to decide. The critcism from both the left and the right says it was probably done the correct way.

I didn't go watch Zero Dark Thirty looking to confirm or deny what I believe. Separately the controversy is a whole other issue. I like the controversy only because it shows who people are. It's a rorschach test. The people who used the popularity of the TV show "24" saying Americans were okay with torture are the very people questioning the torture aspect in this movie as to say torture didn't serve to find Osama Bin Laden. All of the sudden they're now against torture when they were bragging about how it worked before? Why? Then you have leftists like Ed Asner and Martin Sheen telling Oscar voters not to vote for the movie as best picture because they claim it glorifies the use of torture. That's what makes the movie great because it's thought-provoking and both the left and right and their agendas don't like it.

The right loves the TV show 24 because they believe torture gets results. But for some reason they hate Zero Dark Thirty when they get a bigger payoff with the death of Osama Bin Laden. Django Unchained gets criticism for violence but some more violent movies like the Expendables or Arnold Schwarzenegger's upcoming violent movie The Last Stand does not? The NRA faults movies and video games for Sandy Hook so the organization thinks guns shouldn't be blamed. By the same logic the NRA uses that it's only a irresponsible few that abuse the use of guns so there shouldn't be any regulation, the same can be said of movies and video games. Not everyone that watches a violent movie or plays a video game goes out and shoots and kills kids at a school. The contradictions says it's all a distraction and partisan politcs as usual behind it all.

Then you have the left. Martin Sheen doesn't like Zero Dark Thirty because it makes torture seem all right? So Kathryn Bigelow has to send a leftist message of his liking? The same Martin Sheen that helped out his economist friend Peter Navarro make racism all right by narrating in his documentary Death By China filled with lies about trade between China and the US. I guess at least Sheen is being consistent when he doesn't want the truth to be told. Yeah what happen to all those leftists in Hollywood who don't like Chinese investment into their industry because they think China will interfere with the director's vision?

What both sides have in common is they both want to hide the truth and maybe more damning is they think Americans can't think for themselves. Why not depict torture how it really is? Why not depict history how it really was? Is there something wrong with the truth being depicted plain and simple?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I don't think the movie was about sending a message so being for or against is appropriately up to the audience to decide. The critcism from both the left and the right says it was probably done the correct way.

I didn't go watch Zero Dark Thirty looking to confirm or deny what I believe. Separately the controversy is a whole other issue. I like the controversy only because it shows who people are. It's a rorschach test. The people who used the popularity of the TV show "24" saying Americans were okay with torture are the very people questioning the torture aspect in this movie as to say torture didn't serve to find Osama Bin Laden. All of the sudden they're now against torture when they were bragging about how it worked before? Why? Then you have leftists like Ed Asner and Martin Sheen telling Oscar voters not to vote for the movie as best picture because they claim it glorifies the use of torture. That's what makes the movie great because it's thought-provoking and both the left and right and their agendas don't like it.

The right loves the TV show 24 because they believe torture gets results. But for some reason they hate Zero Dark Thirty when they get a bigger payoff with the death of Osama Bin Laden. Django Unchained gets criticism for violence but some more violent movies like the Expendables or Arnold Schwarzenegger's upcoming violent movie The Last Stand does not? The NRA faults movies and video games for Sandy Hook so the organization thinks guns shouldn't be blamed. By the same logic the NRA uses that it's only a irresponsible few that abuse the use of guns so there shouldn't be any regulation, the same can be said of movies and video games. Not everyone that watches a violent movie or plays a video game goes out and shoots and kills kids at a school. The contradictions says it's all a distraction and partisan politcs as usual behind it all.

Then you have the left. Martin Sheen doesn't like Zero Dark Thirty because it makes torture seem all right? So Kathryn Bigelow has to send a leftist message of his liking? The same Martin Sheen that helped out his economist friend Peter Navarro make racism all right by narrating in his documentary Death By China filled with lies about trade between China and the US. I guess at least Sheen is being consistent when he doesn't want the truth to be told. Yeah what happen to all those leftists in Hollywood who don't like Chinese investment into their industry because they think China will interfere with the director's vision?

What both sides have in common is they both want to hide the truth and maybe more damning is they think Americans can't think for themselves. Why not depict torture how it really is? Why not depict history how it really was? Is there something wrong with the truth being depicted plain and simple?

Honestly, you have lost me with most of the above and how it relates to the topic, but my biggest problem with the movie, as I have already explained, is precisely because it inverts the reality of how things happened while purporting to be 'documentary like'.

Torture yielded no useable intelligence that aided in the killing of OBL, that is as plain and indisputable a fact as you can get when it comes to covert ops like this.

The central role torture played in finding OBL as portrayed in the film is a complete fabrication, yet, we have normally well informed and intelligent people like yourself coming away after watching the film and believe feverently that torture did directly lead to the death of OBL despite it being a complete lie. Such inversions of fact and lies do not happen by accident.

If Bigelow had actually stuck to the facts, far far fewer people would have so much of a problem with the film. The reason people from both left and right at attacking the film is because there are very serious issues with it and how it was marketed.

It is interesting that you bring up 24, because in 24, while Jack does engage in torture, and it was quite a revelation when it was first aired, you never get any hint that Jack enjoyed inflicting the pain it caused, in fact, you get the feeling Jack hated the torture almost as much as the people he was torturing. In ZDT, the guys doing the torture relished it, and in playing the 9/11 tapes right at the start, Bigelow was shamelessly exploiting the pain and anguish that is still raw in the hearts of millions and perverted that into getting the American audience to join-in in taking pleasure from seeing people tortured, as a measure of payback for 9/11, and in many many cases, it worked. That is well calculated and no accident.

It is also interesting that you are defending Bigelow as if she was someone just trying to tell the unvarnished truth and attacking her critics for wanted to push their own agenda into the story of the film, when in fact, it is Bigelow who is pushing her own agenda on the audience, at the expense of the facts. Her genius lies in the skill with which she pushed her message to get people into believing she had no message to send and that everything was as it actually happened.

ZDT is a propaganda piece white-washing American torture as necessary and effective, and Bigelow shamelessly exploited 9/11, the death of OBL as well as numerous other terrorist attacks to make her audience more susceptible to her agenda by turning the pain, grief, longing for justice and relief/joy people feel for the victims of those attacks and the death of OBL and twisting it into the most ugly of all human emotions - sadism.

Incidentally, that is also why so many people have issues with later Tarantino films, not in the depiction of the actual violence, but more in the motivation that drives that violence and the pleasure his characters derive from inflicting needless and excessive suffering.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Honestly, you have lost me with most of the above and how it relates to the topic, but my biggest problem with the movie, as I have already explained, is precisely because it inverts the reality of how things happened while purporting to be 'documentary like'.

Torture yielded no useable intelligence that aided in the killing of OBL, that is as plain and indisputable a fact as you can get when it comes to covert ops like this.

The central role torture played in finding OBL as portrayed in the film is a complete fabrication, yet, we have normally well informed and intelligent people like yourself coming away after watching the film and believe feverently that torture did directly lead to the death of OBL despite it being a complete lie. Such inversions of fact and lies do not happen by accident.

If Bigelow had actually stuck to the facts, far far fewer people would have so much of a problem with the film. The reason people from both left and right at attacking the film is because there are very serious issues with it and how it was marketed.

It is interesting that you bring up 24, because in 24, while Jack does engage in torture, and it was quite a revelation when it was first aired, you never get any hint that Jack enjoyed inflicting the pain it caused, in fact, you get the feeling Jack hated the torture almost as much as the people he was torturing. In ZDT, the guys doing the torture relished it, and in playing the 9/11 tapes right at the start, Bigelow was shamelessly exploiting the pain and anguish that is still raw in the hearts of millions and perverted that into getting the American audience to join-in in taking pleasure from seeing people tortured, as a measure of payback for 9/11, and in many many cases, it worked. That is well calculated and no accident.

It is also interesting that you are defending Bigelow as if she was someone just trying to tell the unvarnished truth and attacking her critics for wanted to push their own agenda into the story of the film, when in fact, it is Bigelow who is pushing her own agenda on the audience, at the expense of the facts. Her genius lies in the skill with which she pushed her message to get people into believing she had no message to send and that everything was as it actually happened.

ZDT is a propaganda piece white-washing American torture as necessary and effective, and Bigelow shamelessly exploited 9/11, the death of OBL as well as numerous other terrorist attacks to make her audience more susceptible to her agenda by turning the pain, grief, longing for justice and relief/joy people feel for the victims of those attacks and the death of OBL and twisting it into the most ugly of all human emotions - sadism.

Incidentally, that is also why so many people have issues with later Tarantino films, not in the depiction of the actual violence, but more in the motivation that drives that violence and the pleasure his characters derive from inflicting needless and excessive suffering.

It's great that I find many members were able to distinguish the underlying messages that a movie or movies such ZDT can conveys. Still it is all up to the audiences choice to go see it and determine for themselves what they get out of it. Movies nowadays are not just about entertainment anymore, it's about spreading and sugar coating a particular view point upon others with over dramatization and over acting. With that said, I will still go see ZDT to see for myself what's it all about. For a woman, Kathryn Bigelow sure makes a pretty darn good action films (she won an Oscar for the Hurt Locker).
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Honestly, you have lost me with most of the above and how it relates to the topic, but my biggest problem with the movie, as I have already explained, is precisely because it inverts the reality of how things happened while purporting to be 'documentary like'.

Torture yielded no useable intelligence that aided in the killing of OBL, that is as plain and indisputable a fact as you can get when it comes to covert ops like this.

The central role torture played in finding OBL as portrayed in the film is a complete fabrication, yet, we have normally well informed and intelligent people like yourself coming away after watching the film and believe feverently that torture did directly lead to the death of OBL despite it being a complete lie. Such inversions of fact and lies do not happen by accident.

If Bigelow had actually stuck to the facts, far far fewer people would have so much of a problem with the film. The reason people from both left and right at attacking the film is because there are very serious issues with it and how it was marketed.

It is interesting that you bring up 24, because in 24, while Jack does engage in torture, and it was quite a revelation when it was first aired, you never get any hint that Jack enjoyed inflicting the pain it caused, in fact, you get the feeling Jack hated the torture almost as much as the people he was torturing. In ZDT, the guys doing the torture relished it, and in playing the 9/11 tapes right at the start, Bigelow was shamelessly exploiting the pain and anguish that is still raw in the hearts of millions and perverted that into getting the American audience to join-in in taking pleasure from seeing people tortured, as a measure of payback for 9/11, and in many many cases, it worked. That is well calculated and no accident.

It is also interesting that you are defending Bigelow as if she was someone just trying to tell the unvarnished truth and attacking her critics for wanted to push their own agenda into the story of the film, when in fact, it is Bigelow who is pushing her own agenda on the audience, at the expense of the facts. Her genius lies in the skill with which she pushed her message to get people into believing she had no message to send and that everything was as it actually happened.

ZDT is a propaganda piece white-washing American torture as necessary and effective, and Bigelow shamelessly exploited 9/11, the death of OBL as well as numerous other terrorist attacks to make her audience more susceptible to her agenda by turning the pain, grief, longing for justice and relief/joy people feel for the victims of those attacks and the death of OBL and twisting it into the most ugly of all human emotions - sadism.

Incidentally, that is also why so many people have issues with later Tarantino films, not in the depiction of the actual violence, but more in the motivation that drives that violence and the pleasure his characters derive from inflicting needless and excessive suffering.

I don't think you read my first post correctly. I did question how much was truthful. All my other comments are about the controversy outside the movie. So I don't where you come up with I'm defending lies.

I don't go watching a movie through a political lens. Nothing in a movie is going to portray the events correctly because they just have on average two hours to tell the story. Bigelow has already said this is not a documentary and how would she know what the truth is when it wasn't divulged directly to the people who made the movie. The writer, Mark Boal, just put together as much as he could through investigation as a book author and journalist and put it together for a movie. All we hear are accusations that someone gave out top secret information to the filmmakers. The claim that the torture in the movie didn't happen contradicts the accusation. I'm sure those Seals in the movie didn't actually portray the people who were actually on the mission. Asking for people to be conflicted about torture is just like the 40 minute fighter fight tale that was put out there. It sounds more dramatic because people want to romanticize overcoming whatever. You make it sound as if Bigelow knows 100% of the truth. She doesn't. So how can she depict the truth when she doesn't know the whole story herself.

Zero Dark Thrity is propaganda white-washing torture? If you thought the torture scenes were ugly, then the movie is perfect to advertise against it. What is the right-wing complaining about if "necessary and effective" is the same reason why they like the TV show 24? What you don't understand is the producers of 24 are known right-wingers. They don't like Zero Dark Thirty simply because they see Bigelow as a Hollywood liberal making the movie during the Obama admistration who is credited with the end of Bin Laden to which is why they conclude he okayed giving top secret information to Hollywood liberals they don't like. Big violent action movies from Republican actors like Stallone, Schwarzenegger, and Willis don't contribute to the very problem they have against Django Unchained? The movie's violence is not worse than any of the known Republican actors' action movies. The only difference is they see the roles reversed from what they're use to and okay with as the real reason they don't like the movie. It has nothing to do with the violence or they would be criticzing their fellow Republicans and their gratuitous violence as well.

Really if you're against American torture and you see the portrayal in the movie as glorifying torture, then I don't know what problem you have with the movie. Asking to see remorse from the torturers contradicts the message you want. You like Jack Bauer because he shows he's conflicted about torture? You forgive him for his actions because he shows remorse? Yet he still does it, doesn't he? So expressing conflict or regret doesn't stop Jack Bauer from using torture. So it's a moot point on whether they show conflict or not and that's how the movie portrays it.
 
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jobjed

Captain
Really if you're against American torture and you see the portrayal in the movie as glorifying torture, then I don't know what problem you have with the movie. Asking to see remorse from the torturers contradicts the message you want. You like Jack Bauer because he shows he's conflicted about torture? You forgive him for his actions because he shows remorse? Yet he still does it, doesn't he? So expressing conflict or regret doesn't stop Jack Bauer from using torture. So it's a moot point on whether they show conflict or not and that's how the movie portrays it.

I think the point he's making is that this movie glorifies torture instead of invoking disgust because the "good guys" do the torturing. In action-hero films like Mission Impossible and James Bond the "good guys" GET tortured instead of the other way around. This film basically sends the message that in this case, the "good guys" use torture and it is OK. The "bad guys" in James Bond or Harry Potter etc show no remorse with torturing and are thus the antagonists. The torturers in ZDT on the other hand are the protagonists, giving audiences the opposite message that "good guys are allowed to use torture in order to "bring justice to the perpretrators of the greatest crime committed against the US in the modern age". In order words, exploiting patriotism to further a concept that is rejected by most civilised societies.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
All I saw was a guy strung up keeping him on his feet, waterboarded, threatened to be kept in a box, and stripped down in front of a woman and another guy with a fist hit in the face twice. Whatever else was after the fact meaning bruises and swollen faces. Anyone else see the movie, did I miss something? Anyway, I saw worse on the TV show Scandal the other week. Since Zero Dark Thirty is based on real events, even if they say the torture didn't happen in finding Bin Laden, we know torture did happen. I don't think the people that would be conflicted would be in the business of torturing people in the first place so why bother showing something that most likely didn't happen. Have we heard of anyone involved in torturing detainees thinking twice? So why depict something that by all public accounts didn't happen? The criticism is the movie lies. Well is that asking for a lie? If the torture scenes were ugly, I would argue they're more ugly in real life than depicted. They didn't show dogs attacking the detainees. They didn't electric shock in the genitals. They didn't show detainees dying from being tortured. They didn't show the humiliation of butt pyramids. They did portray how President Obama stopped the practice of torture. Personally I think it's still happening especially since many Americans think outsourcing torture means the US didn't torture and we know that happens too.

I don't think portraying someone conflicted about torturing detainees is going to convince anyone it's wrong. I think the real reason what frightens the critics in the US about the torture in the movie is that it says the leader of the free world and forefront in the fight for democracy and human rights tortures people. So in turn others will think it's all right for them to torture too even on Americans because they do it. That endangers Americans overseas. That's what they're worried about.
 
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