China Flanker Thread II

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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I was wondering wheter the poor performence of the J-11B against the J-10 has something to do with the Flankers being build by SAC. Are there any data or news about the SU-30MKK's performence against J-10 ?

Su-30 MKK is primarily dedicated to strike but also has reasonably good air to air performances. The main issue with the "air combat" between the J-10 and the Su-30 is that the only officially declassified confrontation occurred during an interception exercise in which the J-10s intercepted Su-30s on a hypothetical strike mission.
 
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Quickie

Colonel
What puzzles me is we often heard about the flankers having better turn rates than the F-16 and F-15. This put a question mark on whether the F-16s did have the advantage of maneouvrability in the exercises and whether it won on this count alone in WVR and not through a different type of encounter like for example in BVR.
 

Engineer

Major
What puzzles me is we often heard about the flankers having better turn rates than the F-16 and F-15. This put a question mark on whether the F-16s did have the advantage of maneouvrability in the exercises and whether it won on this count alone in WVR and not through a different type of encounter like for example in BVR.

An analysis that I have read on a Chinese forum points out that the exercise wasn't about dog fighting, but to develop tactics against NATO EW equipments. Basically, the J-11s kept on trying until that single win. At that point, the objective of the exercise is attained, and the exercise ended.
 

hmmwv

Junior Member
Pilot training also plays a strong role, the recent embarrassing loss by 1st Div J11B against Guangzhou MR J11A is a clear example.
 

tphuang

General
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Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Pilot training also plays a strong role, the recent embarrassing loss by 1st Div J11B against Guangzhou MR J11A is a clear example.
That makes sense. It took a long time for the Su-27s to start beating J-7s. Reading some of the things from that encounter, it almost seems like the 1st division pilots were too embarrassing. Which makes it interesting that J-10 was able to crush other aircraft that early on.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
I was wondering wheter the poor performence of the J-11B against the J-10 has something to do with the Flankers being build by SAC. Are there any data or news about the SU-30MKK's performence against J-10 ?
they are old Su-27s, and probably a bit of propaganda, but Su-35 is the real yard stick pitting a Su-35BM against a J-10S will be interesting to see who is better, new upgraded flankers of the Russian air force with have Su-35 will have TVC nozzles and Supercruise and probably the Su-30 will add supercriuse with the new engine.




AL-31F M2 engine contemplated by OKB Sukhogo (Sukhoi Design Bureau)

28 February 2012, Moscow – Technical experts gathered at FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” for a conference to review the results of Salut's R&D efforts towards implementing the 2nd Phase of the AL-31F engine modernization (known as AL-31F M2). OKB Sukhogo is showing interest in the engine upgrade to pursue the repowering program of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft of the Russian Air Force.

The R&D appraisal meeting – the first one after a five years' pause – saw the participation of all the parties concerned: “OKB “Sukhogo”, “Lyulka NTTs”, “United Aircraft Corporation” and “United Engine-Building Corporation”. The project status report was presented by Sergey Rodyuk, who noted that all the activities for the second phase of the engine upgrade had been in close adherence to the specified timeframes. The special program of the 2nd phase engine bench tests in the climatic test facility at TsIAM has by now been completed with the results demonstrating the engine's capability of attaining 14 500 kgf of static thrust and proving its design performance parameters in flight conditions. Compared with the first-phase AL-31FM, the latest iteration has a 9% higher thrust during flight operation.

“The overall engine size will be subject to no trade-offs so as to keep the AL-31F upgrade conveniently suited for re-engining of the whole inventory of Su-27 aircraft without any additional airframe and engine nacelle modifications.” - said Gennady Skirdov, Salut's acting General Designer.

It is planned to have the program of special test-bench and endurance tests accomplished before the end of 2012 and go ahead with the special flight tests, which precede the state certification tests.

Vladislav Masalov, Director General of Salut, said that the full-scale deliveries of upgraded engines could be started as early as 2013. “The AL-31F M2 engine can be a not so expensive solution for re-engining of Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 fleet now operated by the Russian military and is likewise deliverable to foreign customers,” noted Director General. The technical specifications and requirements of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft call for the engines with increased thrust and improved fuel consumption with the AL-31F M2 fulfilling these requisites. The installation can be performed without any rework of the aircraft and take place in field conditions.

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stealthizing Sukhois

The protective coating against radiation for the combat aircraft canopy has been developed in Russia

Share on googleGoogle Bookmarks Share on livejournalLivejournal Share on deliciousDelicous Share on stumbleuponStumble Share on diggDigg Share on twitterTwitter Share on facebookFacebook Share on myspaceMySpace More Sharing ServicesMore Destinations... Russian Aviaton » Friday April 13, 2012 18:54 MSKThe specialists of Obninsk-based Technologiya research and development enterprise have developed the metal-optic nano-coating for the canopy of combat aircraft, which protects the pilots against radiation and intense solar radiance during altitude flights. It has been declared by the Director of Steklo research and development division of Technologiya, Valery Temnikh, Lenta.ru reports.

According to him, the new coating should be applied on the inner side of the canopy and it decreases the warmth of solar flux by 40% and the radiation – by 30%. In addition, the coating decreases the electromagnetic emission 250 times and increases abrasive wear resistance and wear resistance. "Various metals are applied to the canopy and the light transmittance should be at least 70% after this procedure", - Temnykh said.

Follow us on: Besides, the new coating will help decrease the cockpit’s radar signature by 30%. According to Temnykh, the radio signal is reflected by the finished glass and the quenched signal spreads in different directions. The overall coating’s thickness is about 80 nanometers. Technologiya uses special magnetron deposition equipment for applying the coating to the canopy. The coating will be applied to the canopy of Т-50 (PAK FA), МiG-29К, Su-30 fighters and Su-34 bomber.

The mass-media have reported in late March 2012 that Technologiya have used gold sputtering in order to protect the pilot of T-50 against radio waves and solar radiance. According to the Chief Designer of Technologiya, Vladimir Vikulin, indium and tin are also used besides gold. The thickness of one layer is 20 nm, and the overall coating’s thickness is around 90 nm

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SinoSoldier

Colonel
they are old Su-27s, and probably a bit of propaganda, but Su-35 is the real yard stick pitting a Su-35BM against a J-10S will be interesting to see who is better, new upgraded flankers of the Russian air force with have Su-35 will have TVC nozzles and Supercruise and probably the Su-30 will add supercriuse with the new engine.




AL-31F M2 engine contemplated by OKB Sukhogo (Sukhoi Design Bureau)

28 February 2012, Moscow – Technical experts gathered at FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” for a conference to review the results of Salut's R&D efforts towards implementing the 2nd Phase of the AL-31F engine modernization (known as AL-31F M2). OKB Sukhogo is showing interest in the engine upgrade to pursue the repowering program of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft of the Russian Air Force.

The R&D appraisal meeting – the first one after a five years' pause – saw the participation of all the parties concerned: “OKB “Sukhogo”, “Lyulka NTTs”, “United Aircraft Corporation” and “United Engine-Building Corporation”. The project status report was presented by Sergey Rodyuk, who noted that all the activities for the second phase of the engine upgrade had been in close adherence to the specified timeframes. The special program of the 2nd phase engine bench tests in the climatic test facility at TsIAM has by now been completed with the results demonstrating the engine's capability of attaining 14 500 kgf of static thrust and proving its design performance parameters in flight conditions. Compared with the first-phase AL-31FM, the latest iteration has a 9% higher thrust during flight operation.

“The overall engine size will be subject to no trade-offs so as to keep the AL-31F upgrade conveniently suited for re-engining of the whole inventory of Su-27 aircraft without any additional airframe and engine nacelle modifications.” - said Gennady Skirdov, Salut's acting General Designer.

It is planned to have the program of special test-bench and endurance tests accomplished before the end of 2012 and go ahead with the special flight tests, which precede the state certification tests.

Vladislav Masalov, Director General of Salut, said that the full-scale deliveries of upgraded engines could be started as early as 2013. “The AL-31F M2 engine can be a not so expensive solution for re-engining of Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 fleet now operated by the Russian military and is likewise deliverable to foreign customers,” noted Director General. The technical specifications and requirements of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft call for the engines with increased thrust and improved fuel consumption with the AL-31F M2 fulfilling these requisites. The installation can be performed without any rework of the aircraft and take place in field conditions.

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stealthizing Sukhois

The protective coating against radiation for the combat aircraft canopy has been developed in Russia

Share on googleGoogle Bookmarks Share on livejournalLivejournal Share on deliciousDelicous Share on stumbleuponStumble Share on diggDigg Share on twitterTwitter Share on facebookFacebook Share on myspaceMySpace More Sharing ServicesMore Destinations... Russian Aviaton » Friday April 13, 2012 18:54 MSKThe specialists of Obninsk-based Technologiya research and development enterprise have developed the metal-optic nano-coating for the canopy of combat aircraft, which protects the pilots against radiation and intense solar radiance during altitude flights. It has been declared by the Director of Steklo research and development division of Technologiya, Valery Temnikh, Lenta.ru reports.

According to him, the new coating should be applied on the inner side of the canopy and it decreases the warmth of solar flux by 40% and the radiation – by 30%. In addition, the coating decreases the electromagnetic emission 250 times and increases abrasive wear resistance and wear resistance. "Various metals are applied to the canopy and the light transmittance should be at least 70% after this procedure", - Temnykh said.

Follow us on: Besides, the new coating will help decrease the cockpit’s radar signature by 30%. According to Temnykh, the radio signal is reflected by the finished glass and the quenched signal spreads in different directions. The overall coating’s thickness is about 80 nanometers. Technologiya uses special magnetron deposition equipment for applying the coating to the canopy. The coating will be applied to the canopy of Т-50 (PAK FA), МiG-29К, Su-30 fighters and Su-34 bomber.

The mass-media have reported in late March 2012 that Technologiya have used gold sputtering in order to protect the pilot of T-50 against radio waves and solar radiance. According to the Chief Designer of Technologiya, Vladimir Vikulin, indium and tin are also used besides gold. The thickness of one layer is 20 nm, and the overall coating’s thickness is around 90 nm

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The J11B is anything but an old Su27. The J11B incorporates tremendously more powerful engines as well as weight reduction. Aerodynamically wise, aside from the more powerful engines and thrust vectoring, the Su35 does not possess any advantage over the J11B seeing that the fuselages of both planes evolved from the Su27.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
The J11B is anything but an old Su27. The J11B incorporates tremendously more powerful engines as well as weight reduction. Aerodynamically wise, aside from the more powerful engines and thrust vectoring, the Su35 does not possess any advantage over the J11B seeing that the fuselages of both planes evolved from the Su27.

tremendously more powerful engines? what engine is that? WS-10 on the J-11B produces 125 kN of thrusts compared to the 122 kN of the basic AL-31F (don't get confused with the original 132 kN value). In contrast the AL-41F1A of the Su-35 produces 142 kN of max thrust. Not to mention the 3D TVC. Su-35 also has at least 2 extra hardpoints. Su-35 empty weight has not been officially disclosed so cannot say anything about weight reduction.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
J-11B is just an updated Flanker, because the original Su-27 was really outdated,
think of it as a Chinese SKM upgrade equivalent
combined with their large size, those birds are probably more useful for pilot training/hours than anything else

some people really think the J-11B is on par with the Su-35
personally i don't think so, or to be fair we don't know for sure

the only aspect where J-11B can be superior is perhaps AESA radar and the proof for that is highly questionable (a single brochure)
which is ironical, because again the original Su-27 Chinese get was terribly bad at that

can the J-10 beat the old Flankers, no doubt bout that
 

escobar

Brigadier
An engineering unit of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force has modified aircraft to make them adapted to the plateau environment in Tibet. The unit also wrote special plateau operations manuals to improve the aircraft maintenance work.

gWbBB.jpg

sOiNA.jpg

MeBWk.jpg

7mS1B.jpg

yLFcV.jpg

twpKW.jpg

2yN9w.jpg


---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------

An engineering unit of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force has modified aircraft to make them adapted to the plateau environment in Tibet. The unit also wrote special plateau operations manuals to improve the aircraft maintenance work.

gWbBB.jpg

sOiNA.jpg

MeBWk.jpg

7mS1B.jpg

yLFcV.jpg

twpKW.jpg
 
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