Inside China: Admiral says China can destroy destroyers? true or not?

delft

Brigadier
This reminds me of the battle of Lissa
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where the Austrian admiral pulled off a ramming attack because he was outgunned. For a long time it was then considered necessary that ironclads must be able to ram their opponent. It's the same here, an admiral was once able in a game to cleverly combine and time his resources for a most unexpected strike. That doesn't fundamentally change the whole picture of naval warfare except for armchair admirals who by far do not know all details necessary for that operation.
I had neglected this thread after the first dozen posts and when I started again today the Battle of Lissa came to mind pretty soon. The result of this battle was that several capital ships were to be sunk in the next quarter of a century by ramming, all by ships of their own navy, none in war.
We can go back even further. Line tactics by sailing ships seem to have used since the middle of the 16th century and to be systematized by the admirals Tromp and De Ruyter in the middle of the 17th. At the same time fire ships were used to attack large warships and they were very much more effective in destroying these in the very few instances when they were effective at all. In 1588 at Gravelines the English were able to burn one Spanish ship for the expenditure of eight fire ships. But many Spanish ships cut their anchor cables and escaped to sea were they were vulnerable to the English fleet. I think the last time fire ships were successful during a sea battle was in 1692 at the Battle of La Hogue. But fire ships remained part of navies for another hundred years.
In short a large variety of weapons to attack some target, even if many of them are unlikely to be successful, complicates the tactics of the other party because of the need to guard against them. That no doubt is why we see the Iranian Revolutionary Guards developing so many small and for the most part simple weapon systems to deter the US. They have already succeeded in having senior military officers in the US and Israel saying there is no evidence that Iran has decided to develop nuclear weapons, an argument that would have been irrelevant if the Iranians hadn't been so active. No doubt the tactics employed in the 2002 war game would fail spectacularly if used in a war tomorrow, but the notion that you can be overwhelmed by an unexpected combination of tactics by a creative opponent stands.
 

mobydog

Junior Member
you know ... you guys should see some CIWS target shooting videos.

[video=youtube;d3A0is0pXUQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3A0is0pXUQ&feature=related[/video]

It seems it does not need any excessive number of small FACs to come really close. Especially those armed with Anti-ship capabilities.

I really sick of those mentality, which instantly mimic good marketing media/editorials, that a nothing can penetrate a US CBG screen period. Every new weapons the US deploys are unbeatable.. even with claims of 1:115 kill ratios are believed .. AKA F22, F4, Bradley, Striker, F104 etc etc... oh.. who can forget the Sherman tank.

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------
 

chinggis

Just Hatched
Registered Member
The youtube comments say that they intentionally missed the target so that it could be reused. Also, that was just a coast guard ship.

no they are not intentionally missed the target. are you ever see aa guns fire? this is a perfect pattern of aa guns. and if you close watch a video you will see how is hard for ship defense to mark target what is hide in sea waves, and target is change it way on sharp turns, with high speed. in that situation man controlled guns are obligatory because only human can predict what other human will do or can do. this is called fear. fear for your life and it is impossible for computers to do. machines do not have fear.
 

Krabat1976

New Member
Whoa five pages. I think it is either psycological warfare to reassure chinese on a new us tech that, when completed, will challenge plan with rail gun, Laser, etc.; or it is an indication of the two approaches undertaken by chinese: asymmetrical in the beginning, symmetrical only when the plan will get similar tech (the 10000+ ton plan destroyer?). Since the simmetrical plan response is probably anywhere ready they are talking about asymmetrical warfare now.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
This video is absolutely meaningless. Missile boats do not need to get this close in to fire their missiles. Only suicide boats do. And suicide boats will not be moving back and forth like that waiting to be shot, they will move straight in towards the target ship, just like a missile, making them much easier targets. Also, not all CIWS have the targeting software that allows them to engage bobbing surface targets like this boat. The Phalanx did not even have this capability until it got upgraded with the Block 1B package. This was also a test of a single CIWS. In actual warfare if a ship was being swarmed with suicide boats, it would certainly also employ the main gun, the 0.5cal HMG's, any 20 and 30mm cannons on board, the ESSM in antisurface mode, and any number of crew members employing rifles.
 

Igor

Banned Idiot
Igor, if true, than the PLA-N should not waste money in building destroyers, frigates, nuclear subs & even having a re-conditioned Ex-Soviet Carrier. Just have the Hubei Class of Fast Missile Boats. Try convincing the top Naval Planners of PLA-N.

Because China wants the full spectrum of power projection cabilities, not just a reactive regional defensive force. It can afford everything.

And Hubei class missile craft are being built at a very rapid pace, indicating that planners have great faith in the idea I mentioned, when it comes to one aspect of the entire naval spectrum, defense of sensitive coastal areas.
 

no_name

Colonel
Missile boats are not the end all be alls, but they are better than nothing. For the less affordable navy(not talking about PLAN here), a few fast capable missile boats may prove to be better use of money than a half a*sed destroyer.

The point is that asymetrical warfare allows you the possibility of going up against the like of Burkes, when you don't have a burke yourself, it does not replace the Burke. You always make the most of what you got.

There is a difference between using B to counter A and using B to replace the role of A. The former only needs to do a much smaller subset of things that the latter is required of.

The thing about asymetrical tactics is that they are alot more restrictive in the roles they play, you are essentially tailoring a counter for your opponents rather than what you want to do. And if your opponents changes, you'll have to change too. Thus a true power always eventually go on the regular power track, as China is doing now with developing a blue water navy.
 
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NikeX

Banned Idiot
you know ... you guys should see some CIWS target shooting videos.

I really sick of those mentality, which instantly mimic good marketing media/editorials, that a nothing can penetrate a US CBG screen period. Every new weapons the US deploys are unbeatable.. even with claims of 1:115 kill ratios are believed .. AKA F22, F4, Bradley, Striker, F104 etc etc... oh.. who can forget the Sherman tank.



In the at sea battle it is experience that counts. And the USN has the most experience in countering a variety of threats. It is the human factor that makes the USN next to unbeatable. Weapons are only a part of the equation. For example damage control on US Navy ships is second to none. Only the experience learned by the British in the Falklands begins to comes close. Other navies can talk but the USN has paid the cost in blood and ships to learn the hard way what works and what does not. For example, the frigate USS Stark was hit by two Exocets in the Persian Gulf during the Iran - Iraq war. In spite of being on fire and and listing, the frigate was brought under control by its crew during the night. And limped into port.

Meanwhile HMS Sheffield was hit by one Exocet during the battle of the Falklands, she was set afire and later after a deserate fight to save the ship sank a day later.

Design and training saved the day for the Stark. Can other navies do as well?
 

no_name

Colonel
no they are not intentionally missed the target. are you ever see aa guns fire? this is a perfect pattern of aa guns. and if you close watch a video you will see how is hard for ship defense to mark target what is hide in sea waves, and target is change it way on sharp turns, with high speed. in that situation man controlled guns are obligatory because only human can predict what other human will do or can do. this is called fear. fear for your life and it is impossible for computers to do. machines do not have fear.

When the CIWS is computer automated, it checks whether the incomming vehicle is a threat to the ship by checking whether it is on a direct collision path. Assuming that there are no other man crewed defense system in action, the best course for the boats to take could actually be a circular approach towards the target with a gradually narrowing radius.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
In the at sea battle it is experience that counts. And the USN has the most experience in countering a variety of threats. It is the human factor that makes the USN next to unbeatable. Weapons are only a part of the equation. For example damage control on US Navy ships is second to none. Only the experience learned by the British in the Falklands begins to comes close. Other navies can talk but the USN has paid the cost in blood and ships to learn the hard way what works and what does not. For example, the frigate USS Stark was hit by two Exocets in the Persian Gulf during the Iran - Iraq war. In spite of being on fire and and listing, the frigate was brought under control by its crew during the night. And limped into port.

Meanwhile HMS Sheffield was hit by one Exocet during the battle of the Falklands, she was set afire and later after a deserate fight to save the ship sank a day later.

Design and training saved the day for the Stark. Can other navies do as well?
Actually if you want to get technical the Stark was hit by two Exocets, one of which did not explode and only imparted its kinetic energy and unburnt fuel to the target. So that's more like one and a half missile hits.
 
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