Chinese Citizens REVOLT in Wukan!!

[Engineer]

Re: Chinese Daily Photos, Videos & News!!

This is not a problem of lack of money. Its a problem of corruption. Quite simply, the regime doesnt have any checks to its power. They can do whatever they want. China must become a multi-party system.

LOL! What a load of rubbish.

India has a democratic system, yet its ranking on the

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is 95 whereas China is 75. Greece is 80, Indonesia is 100, Mexico is 100, Philippines is 129, Ukraine is 152. This shows corruption has nothing to do with the amount of parties a country has. On the other hand, corruption has correlation to how poor a country is.

Power check exists in China. This revolt is an example of power check.

They can do this at small villages like wukan. But they couldnt do it at a big city, couldnt they ?

Who said they couldn't?

 

[plawolf]

Re: Chinese Daily Photos, Videos & News!!

Calls for multi-party rule in China in response to this is plainly nonsensical.

Just look at how effective multi-party democracy has served America and the EU in trying to solve small problems in comparison to what China still needs to overcome and achieve.

Only people who have absolutely no idea of the workings of government could think that Beijing could wave a magic wand and change all the rules and culture of how things work in China and not have absolute chaos and anarchy as a result.

Does anyone here think for a second that the central leadership in Beijing likes these sorts of things happening in China? Do you think they would not put an end to it if there was an easy and effective solution to injustice and corruption?

All those who shout of 'democracy! free press and independent judiciary! like an mantra only need look at the poster boy of democracy in a developing nation to put the lie to those pre-programmed responses.

India's flip flopping over something as benign as supermarket reform is just the most recent example of the pace of change you can expect if China followed your suggestions. If you could be bothered to look further, you will see that for all the empty rhetoric and propaganda singing the praises of democracy, independent press, rule of law and all that jazz, India has worse corruption than China, and is worse off compared to China in pretty much every indicator imaginable, with the gap only seeming to widen.

The problem is that in China, like everywhere else in the world, there are powerful vested interests that benefits from the status quo, and would fight with astonishing brutality and determination to try and maintain it.

The biggest advantage of China's one-party centralized government is that unlike democratic governments, it is next to impossible for such forces to co-op or hold China's top leaders' policies to hostage.

American presidents and British Prime Ministers could be humbled by revolts in Congress/Senate or Parliament over something that would threaten vested interests as much as many of the reforms that China had already passed over the years.

Adopting a multi-party system, even if the transition went beyond flawlessly, would massively set back China's development and modernization efforts at best, and could trap the country in a quagmire of stagnation so easily.

You have the usual suspects coming out claiming that this incident is an example that Beijing cannot be trusted with power, but your own politics aside, have any of you actually stopped to think what it is that this village is actually trying to achieve here with this display and all the publicity?

It most certainly is not to express their lack of faith in the central government. Quite the opposite! They are doing this to attract the attention of the central government and are even talking of breaking out to petition Beijing directly.

It would appear that the people who's plight and cause you are trying to hijack to advanced your own views and goals have starkly different views to that which you are loudly advocating, supposedly on their behalf and for their benefit. And that is a perfect example of what is happening in the wider picture, with western governments and NGO essentially doing the same thing.

If the west really cared about China's development and welfare, the best thing they can do is keep their nose out.

China's biggest, most radical and beneficial reforms and changes have mostly been initiated and implemented by China itself, and not because of foreign pressure.

All the pressure the west tries to exert on China is actually hugely counter-productive towards bringing forward reforms, as China's leaders will find it the harder to implement changes the louder western governments harp on to China about it because of the political requirements to not look like they were kowtowing to foreign pressure, just as any democratic government would in China's place.

The western obsession with trying to undermine China's one-party system at every turn is also a massive impediment to reform and greater freedoms and liberties in China because the government is always concerned that generally good ideas could be co-opted, hijacked or manipulated by the loud and proud western zealots trying to undermine Beijing at every turn. Thus, perfectly good ideas are often rejected because they are viewed as too easily abused by these hostile foreign powers to attack and undermine China's central government.

Even where innovative ideas and reforms are passed, the process is slowed considerably by the need to thoroughly evaluate and vet them for the possibility of misuse by hostile foreigners, and many of the reforms are watered down to minimize the possible scope of abuse, but that also dilute their impact.

The cynical part of me can easily believe that in the halls of power and back-rooms, western leaders know all this perfectly well, which is one of the main reasons why they are pushing the subjects so forcefully and determinately. Who here actually thinks the politicians calling the loudest for 'human rights' and 'freedoms' in China actually give a crap about the welfare of the Chinese people.

If anyone could be asked to do the research, I would not be surprised at all if many of these same politicians are also the ones leading the charge on protectionist bills against China.

 

[NikeX]

The wild card in all of this is the slowing export situation being caused by collapsing demand from the EU and the out of control real estate speculation all across China. Its wild

 

[RedMercury]

plawolf, +1 internets for that post

 

[Equation]

Since when was the US the be all and end all of democracy? The UK had an election last year that produced a Coalition government. And despite inheriting a pretty crap fiscal situation, their actions have kept bond prices low because the Market is convinced they are taking the necessary steps to resolve our problems.

China couldn't adopt multi-party democracy overnight. But we're seeing more and more that the CCP can't be trusted with a monopoly on power, regardless of whether the people at the top have good intentions.

And in any event, elections wouldn't be enough. There needs to be judicial reform. Do you think the US' rule of law and judicial independence is a bad thing? Do you think it would be better if there were no juries and judges convicted people based on whether or not they were an inconvenience to the Federal/State government? Do you object to the right of courts laying down injunctions that can freeze or ban government activities, such as construction works?

An independent provincial court could have helped stop the Wukan revolt by freezing the sale of the land and/or demanded a payment to the village before work could continue.

Spare me with the Western rhetoric trite. Do you think the people would tolerate the justice style of America where frivolous law suits runs rampant like drug dealers and criminals who's getting early released due budget constraints?

You don't think Chinese people have relatives and friends living in the west and talk about politics and injustices and topics of all kinds when they meet or talk on the phone or write letters way before the internet was invented? You make it sound like they lack this 'democratic' style of justice due to censorship by the government and such. LOL...get off your moral high horse and start seeing the world for what it is...changing, NOT according to your ideals.

The wild card in all of this is the slowing export situation being caused by collapsing demand from the EU and the out of control real estate speculation all across China. Its wild

CPI has decreased to 4.9% in November and housing prices are down due to lower demands. Export is slowing down for now, but not gone forever. It'll reach back up again in early 2013 as China make trade deals all across the world, not just the developed countries alone. There is always a demand for some kind of products and there's always will be someone willing to make them.

If anyone wants to know, I didn't start this thread - it's all popeye!

Chinageeks has linked to

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news report, which suggests that the central government might look into this matter after all.

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One can only hope they take control of this and stop the harassment of the town's residents, as well as ensuring that the leaders aren't punished for daring to challenge injustice. However, I am also worried that the organisers will be punished even if local officials get the sack, simply because the government won't want others to be encouraged by this. Not that it would stop this happening elsewhere.

You read "Chinageeks" online? That tells me a lot about how you approach each subjects regarding China. Those are mostly "white" wannabes trying to impress their "foreign" friends about how well they can adapt to "democracy" so that they can be labeled as modernity. You couldn't be any more shallow than that. Do you see any stone hurling citizens at police squad like the one in OWS, Egypt, Yemen, Greece, and Italy to name a few?

 

[kyanges]

The point is accountability. Talking about checks in power dances around this point. Multi-party democracies, voting, petitions, etc, are all means to that end. Officials in China are obviously lacking in accountability, but no one really has the perfect solution. Some will tell you it's to impose a western style democracy, theoretically asserting accountability based on elections, others believe China's leaders are held to a sort of moral accountability, since their rule depends on delivering results. Maybe the real answer is neither, or some kind of mix.

This whole situation in Wukan, whatever the outcome, will be just one among many of China's metaphorical, "stones in the river" to feel, while trying to reach that more perfect solution.

 

[Mr T]

You make it sound like they lack this 'democratic' style of justice due to censorship by the government and such.

Would you care to answer my point about the judiciary and jury system?

LOL...get off your moral high horse and start seeing the world for what it is...changing, NOT according to your ideals.

Yes, I see revolutions in North Africa and the Middle East against one party rule, with those countries that have overthrown those regimes staging democratic elections. I don't see many people overthrowing a democratically elected government to install a one party state. In fact, I don't see any.

You read "Chinageeks" online? That tells me a lot about how you approach each subjects regarding China.

I read a lot of things, including blogs written by activists of political parties I have voted against. I'm not scared of reading a variety of views and news.

But, ok, I'll take your word for it that Chinageeks = wrong, ergo the Beijing government will let the citizens of Wukan get squished by the local authorities.

 

[Mr T]

Re: Chinese Daily Photos, Videos & News!!

plawolf, you've given a fine speech to the choir about how foreigners who criticise human rights injustices and call for political reform secretly hate China and don't want anything good for it. Congratulations.

Let's look at the facts, democracy isn't perfect, but neither is a one party state. For example, how would it be easier to deal with the Euro crisis if the EU was a club of totalitarian despots or one-party states? It wouldn't be, and arguably it would be harder because all the leaders would be under even more pressure to "stand up" to the others or face rebellion at home.

I would say that Wukan is a fairly small problem by itself, but the CCP seems incapable of resolving it without threatening to criminalise the protesters and lock up their leaders. Beijing's first reaction was to censor news of it. That's sweeping it under the carpet instead of trying to do something about it.

Also, let's not forget that this is an article about what is happening in a town in China, not political reform. Why don't you offer your views about what is happening and how you would deal with it? Also, what do you think the government in Beijing must do? This has been going on for a week or so, yet there has been no reaction - bar censorship - from Beijing. Do you think it's entitled to do nothing?

And you know what, I will maintain that an independent judiciary with rule of law would have avoided this problem. Will anyone explain to me why I'm wrong on this, rather than make a generic complaint about whites poking their nose into other people's business?

Yes, the residents of Wukan want help from the central government. But who else are they supposed to appeal to? No one, that's who. It's a choice between patriotically asking for help from Beijing, or admitting you've got no chance of getting anywhere and giving in/starving to death.

The problem is that in China, like everywhere else in the world, there are powerful vested interests that benefits from the status quo, and would fight with astonishing brutality and determination to try and maintain it.

The biggest advantage of China's one-party centralized government is that unlike democratic governments, it is next to impossible for such forces to co-op or hold China's top leaders' policies to hostage.

That's a contradictory statement. If China's top leaders can't be held hostage by those powerful interests, they can reform whenever they like. If those forces can and will block reform, China's leaders are as toothless as any of their democratic counterparts. You can't have it both ways.

So when is the Beijing government going to ride to their rescue? Today? Monday?

By the way, what is the obsession with India in China? Seriously, get some perspective. According to Transparency International there are 75 countries in the world less corrupt that China. And they're not all tiny islands or first world countries.

If anyone could be asked to do the research, I would not be surprised at all if many of these same politicians are also the ones leading the charge on protectionist bills against China.

And you might be surprised to find that some politicians who criticise China's political system are also in favour of free trade. David Cameron, for one. Or John McCain.

 

[cn_habs]

Mr T: How can you even talk about accountability when top financiers aka campaign contributors like Corzine have got away with all their crimes they committed? Which other country can you not be held accountable when 500 million of your clients funds were missing for months?

Do you even know why so many democratic countries have been failing miserably? Do you know that endless deregulation and money printing does in the long run? The top banksters which control the financial system are just as bad as many highly corrupt Chinese officials if not way worse.

 

[AssassinsMace]

The democracy isn't perfect excuse...

So I guess that's why the people of Diego Garcia have no recourse to get attention to their plight. I guess that would be a lessen for China is to just excise every single one of them from their homeland. Hey communism isn't perfect.