J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

[Blitzo]

Did you read my post? I said F-22 does not have a single long bay. Therefore the two are not comparable in payload. However, J-20 does if you look closely at the latest photos. There is a visible line extending from the back of the front landing gears all the way to where the engine nacelle begins.

Whoops my bad -- but I never said the F-22 had a single long bay either "The weapons bay will probably be like the F-22s: one single, wide bay with two smaller ones for SRAAMs. We haven't got pictures of the J-20s bay from the prototypes yet either."

F-35 is a strike fighter. It has more payload than F-22. And J-20 will be at least F-35 payload class if not more. I didn't say anything about "number of AA" missiles. I don't know why you bring this up.

I bring it up because there is no to little difference between the number of AA missiles one can hold internally and the internal payload? One would think they're synonymous. The only payload advantage you can say the F-35 has is the "bulge" of the F-35's weapon bays, which may allow it to hold larger diameter weapons like the smallest of AShMs (which have yet to be designed) -- J-20 does not have this kind of bulge in its weapon bays.

What conclusion? Care to point out and quote my specific post and wording?

Well I know it's directed at nameless, but here the post he's probably making reference to.

"You are completely wrong. The F-22 does not have one long bay. It has two on the bottom and two on the sides.

J-20 has one long bay, that should tell you its payload is at least F-35 class, not F-22 class."

 

[maozedong]

Yes of course.

do you mean F-16 has more payload than F-15, J-10 has more payload than Su-27?

 

[Blitzo]

Yes of course.

No more needs to be said.

 

[Geographer]

"This is a useful reminder that more F-22s would be good," says aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the Teal Group and an advocate of the proven Raptor. "But any suggestion that the Chinese have reached parity with the West is absolutely ridiculous. It's an awful lot of hysteria. The J-20 represents a certain degree of progress, but it is very far from being anything like a current-generation US aircraft."

In Aboulafia's estimation, the J-20 prototype "looked very unimpressive". He says that the aircraft is oversized and that its canards - the fins positioned between the cockpit and the wings - will reduce its stealth characteristics. Its shape is reminiscent of "how you designed planes in the 1980s", he suggests. The J-20's front end does indeed look a lot like an F-22, which first flew in 1990, while its back end recalls an old Russian MiG prototype. So the J-20 does not, it seems, signify a breakthrough in indigenous Chinese innovation, instead splicing together used American and Russian ideas.

In any case, "the real challenge isn't building a prototype," Aboulafia continues. "It's getting all the capable industries that give you the key enablers." His point is that while nobody knows what kind of systems are inside the machine that flew on January 10, China is believed not to have developed the many supporting industries - the providers of technologies such as engines, electronic warfare systems, advanced radar, data links, sensor fusion software, command and control systems - that would make the J-20 a true threat to the US military.

As such, even if the J-20 does enter production seven to ten years from now, it is unlikely to be in the same technological class as the F-22, the F-35, or the T-50, a Russian stealth jet which had its first flight last year.

Not all analysts agree with this downbeat assessment of the J-20's capabilities, however. Writing on the Air Power Australia blog, Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon argue that the aircraft poses a formidable challenge. "Any notion that an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet [an older, non-stealthy US fighter] will be capable of competing against this Chengdu design in air combat, let alone penetrate airspace defended by this fighter, would be simply absurd," they conclude.

This J-20 report card is far more glowing than most, and takes a lot for granted about what the untried jet will ultimately be capable of - if indeed it ever enters series production. Anyone confidently predicting that this plane will outgun the F-35 runs the risk of buying into the China mystique: that the all-conquering Chinese can accomplish anything they set their minds to.

This is an unnecessarily scathing article, like the author is trying to convince himself of something he deep downs fears may not be true. Why does Aboulafia suggest more F-22s would be good if the J-20 sucks? Why not just more F-15s or F-35s? As for the F-22 being proven, proven how? It has no combat experience and a dreadfully expensive maintenance record. It is operational and has conducted tests, that's all. The F-22 was designed in the 1980s, as was the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale. Being designed in the 1980s is not necessarily a bad thing.

Designing planes isn't like the period the Wright Brothers where every design under the sun was built and tested. Nearly a century of flight has demonstrated good and bad designs. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. A good design in the 1980s can be a good design today, the physics of flight and radar have not changed. So when Aboulafia says the nose looks a copy of the F-22, and the rear a copy of an old MiG, not only is that ridiculous based on the pictures, even if it was true it is no knock on the designers.

Building a prototype is a big accomplishment if it includes the bits of technology that Aboulafia claims are so hard. We don't know if the plane that flew this week had a radar or avionics installed, or even an indigenous engine. But radars and avionics are areas of expertise for the Chinese defense industry, engines and airframes are not. Seeing the prototype fly was a huge leap forward for China's historically weak areas.

As for this "China mystique", I have never heard that even though I frequent a lot of message boards populated by Chinese nationalists. What I hear, instead, is that China is making huge technological progress across the board, faster than anyone on the outside expected. The author seems to have his own mystique about invincible American hardware and the inherent inferiority of China.

 

[rhino123]

Yes of course.

According to (

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

) F-35 had lower payload as compared to F-22. Internal payload wise, they are similar, but JSF (later, F-35) could carry only 75% of external payload when compared to F-22.

As to J-20... I know I read it somewhere that the aircraft was estimated to be bigger than the F-22, and taking assumption that all other parameters are the same, then J-20, might be able to fit more weapon payload into its belly.

However, with that said, a fighter's efficiency and capability are not measure by how many AA missile, AGM missiles it carried, but it is measured more on its avionic, radar and other electronic system, together with its overall airframe (taking assumption that pilots skills are the same.)

For China's J-20, it is still quite difficult to judge her overall performance with only a single maiden flight.

 

[Quickie]

First, the F-35 has less overall payload than the F-22, but a larger INTERNAL payload. Given that one of the things the F-35 is supposed to do is replace the F-117, that is a key issue. If either plane starts putting missiles, pods and bombs all over the outside, it loses its stealth.

Second, the J-20. What do we really know about it? A plane that looks very modern flew around for 15 minutes. Was anyone in position to check out its radar signature? Nope. Did anyone see it use thrust-vectoring or supercruise? Nope. The end story is we only know what the Chinese government has told us, either official or by "official rumor." China -- like other countries run by authoritarian regimes (the Soviets, the North Koreans, Iran, etc.) -- has a long history of exaggerating what its weapons can do. It is such a standard tactic that it is actually in textbooks!

The stealth side of this is especially dubious. The best gear the Chinese have always involves borrowed, purchased or copied technology from Russia, the EU or Israel. I don't doubt that the Chinese are capable of stealing some stealth secrets from the US and then deriving something out of that, and the Russians have their own base of experience with this issue. Still, the Russians have been increasingly reluctant to share such things with the Chinese, since Beijing just steals it all, copies it, and then undersells the Russians on the international arms market. Without that help, the idea that a truly stealthy aircraft could be built in a single go is unlikely. Stealth characteristics, yes... but not virtually invisible to radar and still be a real fighter aircraft ala the F-22 and F-35. Think about it. The Russians have been trying to do it for more than 30 years and are only now showing any signs of success. The Europeans thought about it and turned away because of cost issues. It just isn't that easy.

Not this stuffs again. You're basically repeating and copying all the boring stuffs you copied from the sources that most members here were arguing against, stuffs the moderators here have advised us to ignore. So, I don't see your point of repeating and copying the trollings and such similar stuffs over here, which has nothing to do with J-20.

 

[rhino123]

First, the F-35 has less overall payload than the F-22, but a larger INTERNAL payload. Given that one of the things the F-35 is supposed to do is replace the F-117, that is a key issue. If either plane starts putting missiles, pods and bombs all over the outside, it loses its stealth.

Second, the J-20. What do we really know about it? A plane that looks very modern flew around for 15 minutes. Was anyone in position to check out its radar signature? Nope. Did anyone see it use thrust-vectoring or supercruise? Nope. The end story is we only know what the Chinese government has told us, either official or by "official rumor." China -- like other countries run by authoritarian regimes (the Soviets, the North Koreans, Iran, etc.) -- has a long history of exaggerating what its weapons can do. It is such a standard tactic that it is actually in textbooks!

The stealth side of this is especially dubious. The best gear the Chinese have always involves borrowed, purchased or copied technology from Russia, the EU or Israel. I don't doubt that the Chinese are capable of stealing some stealth secrets from the US and then deriving something out of that, and the Russians have their own base of experience with this issue. Still, the Russians have been increasingly reluctant to share such things with the Chinese, since Beijing just steals it all, copies it, and then undersells the Russians on the international arms market. Without that help, the idea that a truly stealthy aircraft could be built in a single go is unlikely. Stealth characteristics, yes... but not virtually invisible to radar and still be a real fighter aircraft ala the F-22 and F-35. Think about it. The Russians have been trying to do it for more than 30 years and are only now showing any signs of success. The Europeans thought about it and turned away because of cost issues. It just isn't that easy.

Do you have any references to back up your claims that whatever CHina fielded are copied (and save us the craps about J-11B being clone of Su-27, J-10 being copied from Lavi, because as proven time and again, those are nothing but craps).

Also what do you mean by "official rumours"? Up till now China never boast of their weapons and equipments and as we see many times, they actually downplay their capability. So get this fact right.

 

[maozedong]

Not this stuffs again. You're basically repeating and copying all the boring stuffs you copied from the sources that most members here were arguing against, stuffs the moderators here have advised us to ignore. So, I don't see your point of repeating and copying the trollings and such similar stuffs over here, which has nothing to do with J-20.

he said no much know about J-20, then he said so much stuff against himself. he just like see some one to buy some thing, but he dosn't know where is some one's money from, so he think some one must steal money.
johnboy, I just aet some chicken, but I find that you are eating some chicken too, so you must stole my chicken.
like you said,chinese invented gunpowder, but now the whole world use gunpowder,the whole world steal gunpowder from chinese.
like you said,the Russian invented satellite first,the American stole Sat technology from Russian.
the American stole nuclear technology from German, then the Russian stole nuclear technology from American...
do you know what are you talking about? Johnboy?

 

[Asymptote]

First, the F-35 has less overall payload than the F-22, but a larger INTERNAL payload. Given that one of the things the F-35 is supposed to do is replace the F-117, that is a key issue. If either plane starts putting missiles, pods and bombs all over the outside, it loses its stealth.

Second, the J-20. What do we really know about it? A plane that looks very modern flew around for 15 minutes. Was anyone in position to check out its radar signature? Nope. Did anyone see it use thrust-vectoring or supercruise? Nope. The end story is we only know what the Chinese government has told us, either official or by "official rumor." China -- like other countries run by authoritarian regimes (the Soviets, the North Koreans, Iran, etc.) -- has a long history of exaggerating what its weapons can do. It is such a standard tactic that it is actually in textbooks!

The stealth side of this is especially dubious. The best gear the Chinese have always involves borrowed, purchased or copied technology from Russia, the EU or Israel. I don't doubt that the Chinese are capable of stealing some stealth secrets from the US and then deriving something out of that, and the Russians have their own base of experience with this issue. Still, the Russians have been increasingly reluctant to share such things with the Chinese, since Beijing just steals it all, copies it, and then undersells the Russians on the international arms market. Without that help, the idea that a truly stealthy aircraft could be built in a single go is unlikely. Stealth characteristics, yes... but not virtually invisible to radar and still be a real fighter aircraft ala the F-22 and F-35. Think about it. The Russians have been trying to do it for more than 30 years and are only now showing any signs of success. The Europeans thought about it and turned away because of cost issues. It just isn't that easy.

Where is the moderator when trolls are bashing with no facts to back up anything??
So, if someone say anything even remotely pro-China or anti-america, mod would jump in and give out warnings, but if someone bash China with obvious trolling post, he is allow to go on.

 

[T-U-P]

Where is the moderator when trolls are bashing with no facts to back up anything??
So, if someone say anything even remotely pro-China or anti-america, mod would jump in and give out warnings, but if someone bash China with obvious trolling post, he is allow to go on.

Chill, this forum is not monitored by some crazy AI, moderators need to sleep too