J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

Status
Not open for further replies.

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Gents just leave the article alone and discuss the aircraft. I'm happy the article has been exposed as mis-information.

Starting today do not respond to anything a mod types in blue or
red. JUST FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS!!

bd popeye super moderator
 
Last edited:

MwRYum

Major
If anyone can post some pics of the j-20 prototype cockpit please? there's something special about it.

thnx in advance!

The closest you'd get is the simulator that was on exhibit at Zhuhai last year. And judging the CCTV stance to pour cool water onto this whole business, the authority got what they wanted out of all this and things will die down on the publicity front. Years of work ahead of the project team and longer until you'd see CCTV release documentary of J-20.
 
Last edited:

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Well, now look what I found..kind of small and fuzzy but...These photos are from;

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


sorry about the size & resolution.

1-187.jpg


2-111.jpg


3-74.jpg


4-66.jpg


The Chinese J-20 stealth stealth fighter jet is seen preparing for a test flight in Chengdu, southwest China on Jan. 7, 2011.
 

kroko

Senior Member
no thrust vectoring?

I dont know if i can make this but, someone on keypublishing forum said that j-20 wasnt designed with thrust vectoring in mind, explaining why its canard design. See post nº 412. For those who understand, what do you make of it?
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

andyhugfan

Banned Idiot
My curiousity about cockpit displays is becasuse I saw some pics from the prototype display(s). On those displays you can clearly see a j-20 fighter with the wapeons loadout.

maybe this could be the answer to the weaponsbay loadout?????

feel free to discuss!!!!
 

Quickie

Colonel
Re: no thrust vectoring?

I dont know if i can make this but, someone on keypublishing forum said that j-20 wasnt designed with thrust vectoring in mind, explaining why its canard design. See post nº 412. For those who understand, what do you make of it?
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I wouldn't look at it that way. In that situation, it's more energy efficient to just level out the canards than to use thrust vectoring to stabilize the pitch. It doesn't mean the designer has no consideration of the use of thrust vectoring in the design of J-20.
 
Last edited:

KYli

Brigadier
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


China tries to steal a march
By Trefor Moss

Former paramount leader Deng Xiaoping once advised his future successors to bide their time and hide their capabilities, but China's military leadership has this month done precisely the opposite, appearing in a big hurry to show the world exactly what they are capable of. It is as though China's first working stealth jet was just too exciting a development to be left sitting unsung in the hangar - especially with US Defense Secretary Robert Gates about to come calling.

The story of the Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter, whose existence was revealed at the turn of the year, is perhaps more remarkable for what it says about the bravura of China's rulers - and about the West's reactions - than for what it reveals about the future



capability of the Chinese air force.

Beijing's decision to trumpet the J-20's development resides within the culture of conspicuous wealth which China's urban residents will recognize as a trait of the country's moneyed elite. This is a generation that flaunts its capabilities, not hides them; and as the newest, flashiest expression of China's wealth and vigor the stealth plane simply had to be put on parade where the whole world could see it. The big question is whether we are right to be impressed by their technological achievement.

On January 10, the J-20 prototype took its first flight above Chengdu, provincial capital of Sichuan, but amid the media sensation it was unclear how best to interpret the aircraft's emergence, with the J-20 having become central to two contrasting narratives about the nature and implications of China's military modernization.

In the first, the J-20 has become an emblem of the rise of China and the decline of American power. With the US experiencing technical holdups and huge cost overruns in the development of its own stealth fighter, the F-35, and poised to axe production of its other stealthy jet, the F-22 Raptor, China has displayed its growing confidence and technical prowess by debuting the J-20 years earlier than Western analysts were predicting.

In the second, the J-20's unveiling was little more than a publicity stunt on the part of a government that would sooner try to stoke, rather than calm, American fears. A mishmash of outdated US and Russian design features, the aircraft displayed no signs of genuine Chinese innovation and remained a decade away from active service, its detractors have argued. As a weapon system, its primary role was as a pin with which to prick Gates, whose bridge-building trip to Beijing coincided with the aircraft's appearance on the Chengdu tarmac.

What's clear from the pictures crowding the Chinese blogosphere is that the J-20 is a big aircraft, which may point to a future role as a long-range interceptor or as an anti-access weapon with the ability to operate beyond the second island chain, which includes Guam, home to an important US airbase. However, China's air-to-air refueling capability is not yet mature enough to support this kind of long-range mission, and the J-20's size may point to technical limitations - most likely with the plane's engines, which Chinese industry is yet to build capably - rather than strategic choice.

Whatever the case, the American defense lobby was always likely to interpret the J-20 as a severe threat to US security, having fought a long (and unsuccessful) campaign to keep building the F-22 - an air superiority fighter which they regard as the ultimate guarantor of America's command of the skies. Indeed, the J-20 may have handed the F-22 one final lifeline. Gates, who killed the F-22 program, is about to step down, and his replacement could conceivably hand the Raptor an eleventh-hour reprieve and keep the production line turning.

However, any such a decision would be most wisely taken as a hedge against further pitfalls in the development path of the F-35, the aircraft selected as the mainstay of future US air power at the F-22's expense - and not as a knee-jerk reaction to the J-20's arrival.

"This is a useful reminder that more F-22s would be good," says aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the Teal Group and an advocate of the proven Raptor. "But any suggestion that the Chinese have reached parity with the West is absolutely ridiculous. It's an awful lot of hysteria. The J-20 represents a certain degree of progress, but it is very far from being anything like a current-generation US aircraft."

In Aboulafia's estimation, the J-20 prototype "looked very unimpressive". He says that the aircraft is oversized and that its canards - the fins positioned between the cockpit and the wings - will reduce its stealth characteristics. Its shape is reminiscent of "how you designed planes in the 1980s", he suggests. The J-20's front end does indeed look a lot like an F-22, which first flew in 1990, while its back end recalls an old Russian MiG prototype. So the J-20 does not, it seems, signify a breakthrough in indigenous Chinese innovation, instead splicing together used American and Russian ideas.

In any case, "the real challenge isn't building a prototype," Aboulafia continues. "It's getting all the capable industries that give you the key enablers." His point is that while nobody knows what kind of systems are inside the machine that flew on January 10, China is believed not to have developed the many supporting industries - the providers of technologies such as engines, electronic warfare systems, advanced radar, data links, sensor fusion software, command and control systems - that would make the J-20 a true threat to the US military.

As such, even if the J-20 does enter production seven to ten years from now, it is unlikely to be in the same technological class as the F-22, the F-35, or the T-50, a Russian stealth jet which had its first flight last year.

Not all analysts agree with this downbeat assessment of the J-20's capabilities, however. Writing on the Air Power Australia blog, Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon argue that the aircraft poses a formidable challenge. "Any notion that an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet [an older, non-stealthy US fighter] will be capable of competing against this Chengdu design in air combat, let alone penetrate airspace defended by this fighter, would be simply absurd," they conclude.

This J-20 report card is far more glowing than most, and takes a lot for granted about what the untried jet will ultimately be capable of - if indeed it ever enters series production. Anyone confidently predicting that this plane will outgun the F-35 runs the risk of buying into the China mystique: that the all-conquering Chinese can accomplish anything they set their minds to.

To be sure, some of China's recent industrial and technological achievements have been impressive. But getting a world-beating stealth fighter into active service within the next decade is a fearsome challenge, even by Chinese standards.

Only one aspect of the J-20 saga appears beyond dispute: that the plane's unveiling was carefully stage-managed to coincide with Gates' visit. It is worrying that the Chinese should have sought to ruffle Gates at a time when he was visiting Beijing specifically to mend Sino-US military relations. But in the end, China's shock tactics may have backfired: Gates' Pentagon analysts most likely told him that the J-20 is nothing much to worry about. Maybe Beijing's top brass should have listened to Deng after all.
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: no thrust vectoring?

One limitation on the manoevring of aircraft is the maximum g-forces that can be endured by the pilot and the aircraft. At high speed the elevators or canards are large enough to reach or exceed that limit. Large deflections of the engine exhaust are only needed for dog fighting at low speed. For example dog fighting jets in the '60s at low altitude saw their speed decay to 400 km/h, 250 mph. This was largely due to the large drag caused by the large lift needed for manoevring. Jet deflection would help in these circumstances.
At great height and so at low air density "low speed" is much higher, but thrust vectoring is probably not necessary.
An aircraft cruising at supersonic speed might use a small deflection of its jet(s) to reduce drag due to control surface deflection.
However, if you are trying to hide the hot engine, and are providing flaps to adapt the size of the exhaust to the power setting, airspeed and air density, you might as well arrange for some thrust vectoring.
 
Last edited:

Quickie

Colonel
I mean that the forward line of the tail planes as seen on the photographs are not the leading edges. I still think you're probably right.

I get what you mean now. Vesicles pointed that out to me, too, earlier. Like I mentioned previously, it wouldn't really matter if the picture is taken from a distance and not very close by.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


China tries to steal a march
By Trefor Moss

Former paramount leader Deng Xiaoping once advised his future successors to bide their time and hide their capabilities, but China's military leadership has this month done precisely the opposite, appearing in a big hurry to show the world exactly what they are capable of. It is as though China's first working stealth jet was just too exciting a development to be left sitting unsung in the hangar - especially with US Defense Secretary Robert Gates about to come calling.

The story of the Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter, whose existence was revealed at the turn of the year, is perhaps more remarkable for what it says about the bravura of China's rulers - and about the West's reactions - than for what it reveals about the future



capability of the Chinese air force.

Beijing's decision to trumpet the J-20's development resides within the culture of conspicuous wealth which China's urban residents will recognize as a trait of the country's moneyed elite. This is a generation that flaunts its capabilities, not hides them; and as the newest, flashiest expression of China's wealth and vigor the stealth plane simply had to be put on parade where the whole world could see it. The big question is whether we are right to be impressed by their technological achievement.

On January 10, the J-20 prototype took its first flight above Chengdu, provincial capital of Sichuan, but amid the media sensation it was unclear how best to interpret the aircraft's emergence, with the J-20 having become central to two contrasting narratives about the nature and implications of China's military modernization.

In the first, the J-20 has become an emblem of the rise of China and the decline of American power. With the US experiencing technical holdups and huge cost overruns in the development of its own stealth fighter, the F-35, and poised to axe production of its other stealthy jet, the F-22 Raptor, China has displayed its growing confidence and technical prowess by debuting the J-20 years earlier than Western analysts were predicting.

In the second, the J-20's unveiling was little more than a publicity stunt on the part of a government that would sooner try to stoke, rather than calm, American fears. A mishmash of outdated US and Russian design features, the aircraft displayed no signs of genuine Chinese innovation and remained a decade away from active service, its detractors have argued. As a weapon system, its primary role was as a pin with which to prick Gates, whose bridge-building trip to Beijing coincided with the aircraft's appearance on the Chengdu tarmac.

What's clear from the pictures crowding the Chinese blogosphere is that the J-20 is a big aircraft, which may point to a future role as a long-range interceptor or as an anti-access weapon with the ability to operate beyond the second island chain, which includes Guam, home to an important US airbase. However, China's air-to-air refueling capability is not yet mature enough to support this kind of long-range mission, and the J-20's size may point to technical limitations - most likely with the plane's engines, which Chinese industry is yet to build capably - rather than strategic choice.

Whatever the case, the American defense lobby was always likely to interpret the J-20 as a severe threat to US security, having fought a long (and unsuccessful) campaign to keep building the F-22 - an air superiority fighter which they regard as the ultimate guarantor of America's command of the skies. Indeed, the J-20 may have handed the F-22 one final lifeline. Gates, who killed the F-22 program, is about to step down, and his replacement could conceivably hand the Raptor an eleventh-hour reprieve and keep the production line turning.

However, any such a decision would be most wisely taken as a hedge against further pitfalls in the development path of the F-35, the aircraft selected as the mainstay of future US air power at the F-22's expense - and not as a knee-jerk reaction to the J-20's arrival.

"This is a useful reminder that more F-22s would be good," says aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the Teal Group and an advocate of the proven Raptor. "But any suggestion that the Chinese have reached parity with the West is absolutely ridiculous. It's an awful lot of hysteria. The J-20 represents a certain degree of progress, but it is very far from being anything like a current-generation US aircraft."

In Aboulafia's estimation, the J-20 prototype "looked very unimpressive". He says that the aircraft is oversized and that its canards - the fins positioned between the cockpit and the wings - will reduce its stealth characteristics. Its shape is reminiscent of "how you designed planes in the 1980s", he suggests. The J-20's front end does indeed look a lot like an F-22, which first flew in 1990, while its back end recalls an old Russian MiG prototype. So the J-20 does not, it seems, signify a breakthrough in indigenous Chinese innovation, instead splicing together used American and Russian ideas.

In any case, "the real challenge isn't building a prototype," Aboulafia continues. "It's getting all the capable industries that give you the key enablers." His point is that while nobody knows what kind of systems are inside the machine that flew on January 10, China is believed not to have developed the many supporting industries - the providers of technologies such as engines, electronic warfare systems, advanced radar, data links, sensor fusion software, command and control systems - that would make the J-20 a true threat to the US military.

As such, even if the J-20 does enter production seven to ten years from now, it is unlikely to be in the same technological class as the F-22, the F-35, or the T-50, a Russian stealth jet which had its first flight last year.

Not all analysts agree with this downbeat assessment of the J-20's capabilities, however. Writing on the Air Power Australia blog, Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon argue that the aircraft poses a formidable challenge. "Any notion that an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet [an older, non-stealthy US fighter] will be capable of competing against this Chengdu design in air combat, let alone penetrate airspace defended by this fighter, would be simply absurd," they conclude.

This J-20 report card is far more glowing than most, and takes a lot for granted about what the untried jet will ultimately be capable of - if indeed it ever enters series production. Anyone confidently predicting that this plane will outgun the F-35 runs the risk of buying into the China mystique: that the all-conquering Chinese can accomplish anything they set their minds to.

To be sure, some of China's recent industrial and technological achievements have been impressive. But getting a world-beating stealth fighter into active service within the next decade is a fearsome challenge, even by Chinese standards.

Only one aspect of the J-20 saga appears beyond dispute: that the plane's unveiling was carefully stage-managed to coincide with Gates' visit. It is worrying that the Chinese should have sought to ruffle Gates at a time when he was visiting Beijing specifically to mend Sino-US military relations. But in the end, China's shock tactics may have backfired: Gates' Pentagon analysts most likely told him that the J-20 is nothing much to worry about. Maybe Beijing's top brass should have listened to Deng after all.

This Richard Aboulafia is proven to be an anti-chinese. He once bashed FC-1, claiming it as thrash which cannot even match a F-5A.. But after Zuhai Air Show 2010 of JF-17 aerial performance, I wonder what he has to say? If the F-5A can match the tight pull and sharp and short take off, I will chop off my head right in front of him.

Look at his childish comment on J-20. He is insulting and ruining his own reputation as an aviation expert.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top