QBZ-191 service rifle family

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
He had hands on at a show in the UK, he wasn’t shooting it he was videoing and handling at a display booth. The U.S. Army had preproduction XM8s they only officially started receiving actual units according to themselves on April 3rd.
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It’s likely what we are hearing is still early batch M7s not PIE versions as PIE and XM8 were first revealed at the same time.
 

Saru

New Member
Registered Member
Sig’s XM8 is not a replacement for the M7. It’s a supplements it.
It’s a shorter lighter version for troops who may find that more useful. It’s also not a replacement for the M4 across the board.

It’s not supposed to be. The M7 is meant to be a battle rifle. The XM8 is supposed to support it. They are supposed to share the 6.8x51mm cartridge in Infantry formations by M250. However the scope of this is predominantly for the rifles the infantry and combat arms. The M4 returning to its original position as a PDW. The M7 resembles a DMR because doctrinally it it aligns with it. The U.S. Army doesn’t have a dedicated DMR in its Infantry TOE. The DMRs were an ad hoc solution. The want was a common caliber across the Infantry rifle platoon. Including for the designated marksman. However as the U.S. went though the GWOT it became clear that the 5.56x45mm wasn’t the optimal choice for such. So the U.S. and many other NATO countries moved up to 7.62x71mm.
Yet that means another caliber in the logistics.

The HK XM8 was more closely aligned with the QBZ 19 family. One core set of components that with a few parts swap fills multiple roles. A compact PDW with a 9 inch barrel , a Carbine with a 12.5 inch barrel and a DMR that doubled as an automatic rifle with an 18 inch barrel. This was more or less just a derivative of the G36. As a rifle of the late 1990s it would have made sense in concept however it was far from future proof and frankly doomed by the simple fact that it couldn’t do anything the M4A1 already did just perhaps not as glamorously.
The M4A1 proved more adaptable to modern advances. So rather than the tactical tuna the U.S. Stuck to the M4 pattern and frankly it seems like everybody else agrees. It seems like every year now a country the was a Bullpup user has dropped it for a weapon that either is an M4 derivative or emulates it.

I haven’t heard anything like that but as the Army only started getting the Sig XM8s at the start of this month that seems a bit premature. Without word of the PIE having moved forward just yet.
Mostly what we have is still the controversy of “is it needed”
“Why is it so heavy?”
“What about my ammo count?”.
Yes from what I have read it was not replaced, but wasn't it even stated originally that the XM7 was supposed to replace the primary service weapon for close combat forces like the M4/M4A1? the main problem was the weight so they had to get improved versions of the XM8 that decreases the weight, removes the foldable stock, shorter handguard and barrel. So originally the XM7 was supposed to fill that role as well but it couldn't despite the army advertising it as the "do it all" weapon.

And I'm seeing the similarity with the qbz19 as well however this wasn't a failed attempt rather that they had already laid out the plans that the QBZ19 will feature a DMR with slight modifications that is not different from what the army is going for with the M8 except for the PLA that this was planned out while the M7 had problems at the beginning and that wasn't just the weight alone either. that is why SIG made the M8 in the first place.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Yes from what I have read it was not replaced, but wasn't it even stated originally that the XM7 was supposed to replace the primary service weapon for close combat forces like the M4/M4A1?
Yes but.. The M4 wasn’t supposed to be the primary service rifle of the U.S. infantry. It was shoehorned into that position because after decades of use it was found more favorable and adaptable than the full size M16A4. This similar to what’s happened in the Korean War with the M2 Carbine vs the M1 Garand.
main problem was the weight so they had to get improved versions of the XM8 that decreases the weight, removes the foldable stock, shorter handguard and barrel. So originally the XM7 was supposed to fill that role as well but it couldn't despite the army advertising it as the "do it all" weapon.
The XM8 and M7 PIE. Basically Sig got feed back from the XM7 and identified a number of performance issues including weight however the XM8 had already been under a degree of development. Early prototype and proposals were under various names. SIG MCX Raptor, Sig Spear Assualter. Though those had 9 inch barrels.
The issue is who is getting the rifle.
The M4 wasn’t supposed to be an infantry weapon it was like the P90 meant for cooks, clerks, staff officers, Truck drivers, motor pool, Flight line . It was better than a pistol but smaller than a rifle. A weapon you could sling at an HQ that you could use if the enemy got inside the wire. More convenient.
Its mission expanded so combat support troops like front line medics, combat mechanics, Tankers, Artillery, forward fire directors. Eventually Infantry Team leaders got it then it squeezed out the M16. And then the U.S. Army moved to the A1 full automatic selector from the 3 round burst.

Now M4A1 is returning to that HQ carbine. The weapon slung off the guy who is moving around pallets of water, working a computer in the TOC, putting APKWs in the pods on the wings of Apache’s, the Doc, the Pharmacist, the cook. It’s a self defense weapon just in case someone got back to camp.

M7 is Intended to replace the rifles in the Infantry squad. It’s meant for the guy whose MOS is pulling the trigger. Front line infantry formations. Riflemen, Designated Riflemen.
XM8 is meant to be the guys who are supporting him but at close hand. The combat mechanics, Tank crew, Artillery. Medics, forward observers, possibly Infantry squad leaders maybe grenadiers and AT guys . Close drone operators.

XM8 and M7 PIE are improved versions of the M7 that’s what PIE stands for Product Improved. The Result of this is that the M7 went from 3.8 kg in the initial version to 3.4 kg With the XM8 being 3.3kg.
Again as far back as 4 years ago Sig was working on this. The Army seems to have felt it was worth it and adopted it yet has made it clear it’s to supplement the M7.

This is not what the PLA is doing and it’s understandable why. Very few countries bought in on using a separate caliber PDW. They may have looked at it but, Most just bought a SBR of their primary weapon.
The closest the concept of what is happening would be the NATO PDW concept just in reverse.
Where in the PDW concept specialist Sub machine gun type weapons were developed specifically to go to these second line troops. Using a proprietary small caliber cartridge. However in practice most PDW types just ended up in SOF or LEO hands as smaller more compact weapons or less scary than the big army rifle.
 

Kejora

Junior Member
Registered Member
I still can't understand the performance of 5.8x42mm with such low pressure. Putting the spec into ballistic calculator shown that DBP-10 need to have pressure at least 46,000 psi to reach the performance listed. Pressure of 5.56x45mm also increase from 55,000psi to 62,000 psiwhen they switch from 55gr to 62gr bullet. Either DBP-10/DBP-191 weaker than advertised or they have higher pressure what currently known.
 

QIUSIYU

Senior Member
Registered Member
I haven't heard of any problems with the iron sights. They're screwed to the inner metal handguard, so there shouldn't be any issues.View attachment 173987

The problem with the plastic guide rail is that it's still softer than metal, the connection with the LAM will inevitably loosen gradually under the impact of recoil.
1778080506322.png
According to the user manual, the correct installation method of the laser pointer is to install it through the Picatinny rail on the left or right side.
 

bsdnf

Senior Member
Registered Member
View attachment 174513
According to the user manual, the correct installation method of the laser pointer is to install it through the Picatinny rail on the left or right side.
There is an issue with the orginal side rails on the 191/192: they are too short and do not fit well with third-party LAMs.

And again, the reason Picatinny rails are used is for universality; rails that can't be easily fitted with accessories are not qualified rails. Many SOF are simply accustomed to mounting LAMs on the top rail.

If Factory 296 is so keen on telling users what to do, why didn’t they carry over the Type 95’s dovetail rail?
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
There is an issue with the orginal side rails on the 191/192: they are too short and do not fit well with third-party LAMs.

And again, the reason Picatinny rails are used is for universality; rails that can't be easily fitted with accessories are not qualified rails. Many SOF are simply accustomed to mounting LAMs on the top rail.

I don't particularly have a position in this discussion, but the standard removable side rails seem fairly reasonable in terms of accommodating the necessary room for a typical IR laser unit in a secure fashion.

If anything the bigger question is whether the rail section itself would be able to maintain zero as it ultimately is still connected to the polymer handguard itself.

n8jvovs.jpg


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Of course, I'm of the belief that the standard 191/192 is not well suited for installing a laser to begin with, and the reason that this is "fine" is not due to some giga brain PLA intent to do effective night fighting using other means like thermal optics -- but rather it is just an acceptance that the fielding of helmet mounted NODs (needed for night navigation as well as the fighting part of a night operation) just isn't going to be widely fielded to the PLA to begin with in the near future. And if NODs are a scarce resource, why bother with a serious implementation for IR lasers?

I suspect for the few units which might see NODs as part of their regular fitout, they are likely the ones who will have the ability to buy aftermarket free floated handguards for their 191/192s to install IR laser modules as needed.


But for the rest of the PLA, fielding a laser unit on a standard 191/192 is a semi-LARP rather than a serious intent to do night fighting.

At the end of the day, modern xomplex rifle infantry tactics just isn't something that widespread for the PLA
 
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