Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

Dante80

Junior Member
Registered Member
If the US cannot distinguish between nuclear and conventional attacks it will be forced to temper their behavior
Or treat any launch of said weapons as a nuclear strike.

There is a reason - for example - Russia notified the US in advance before lobbing over Oreshnik to Ukraine.


Luckily (or not, depends on your perspective on this) IF PLA ever has to throw said weapons against the US, it won't really matter how they perceive it or distinguish it. Because we would already be in WWIII, death is certain, etc etc.

These specific weapons are designed to never be used imho. I (and think many others do) view them as deterrence tools.
 

BasilicaLew

Junior Member
Registered Member
Or treat any launch of said weapons as a nuclear strike.

There is a reason - for example - Russia notified the US in advance before lobbing over Oreshnik to Ukraine.


Luckily (or not, depends on your perspective on this) IF PLA ever has to throw said weapons against the US, it won't really matter how they perceive it or distinguish it. Because we would already be in WWIII, death is certain, etc etc.

These specific weapons are designed to never be used imho. I (and think many others do) view them as deterrence tools.
I hate this culture of people who see these weapons and think they are nukes, reasonable nations know, and the US military knows, these wont be nukes, why? beacuse they would be aiming for their nuclear silos and etc, thats the nice thing about these silos, when a foe does a first strike, its clear they are nukes, because most of them would go to strike the silos/nuclear command. Striking hawaii and etc would feel like a nuke for the uninfromed civilian, but the military will know better. Nukes where only very popular in the cold war for their tactical ability, this can go into a long convo about how countries use nukes and etc and how the cold war gone hot would always be nuclear, but really, if your building a df-27 for looks, whats the point? THAAD cant intercept ICBM's anyways, DF-17 and DF-27 are built for use, not deterrence. When China lanuched its DF-41, that was deterrence.
 

tokenanalyst

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I hate this culture of people who see these weapons and think they are nukes, reasonable nations know, and the US military knows, these wont be nukes, why? beacuse they would be aiming for their nuclear silos and etc, thats the nice thing about these silos, when a foe does a first strike, its clear they are nukes, because most of them would go to strike the silos/nuclear command. Striking hawaii and etc would feel like a nuke for the uninfromed civilian, but the military will know better. Nukes where only very popular in the cold war for their tactical ability, this can go into a long convo about how countries use nukes and etc and how the cold war gone hot would always be nuclear, but really, if your building a df-27 for looks, whats the point? THAAD cant intercept ICBM's anyways, DF-17 and DF-27 are built for use, not deterrence. When China lanuched its DF-41, that was deterrence.
Both the US and China and even Russia has been looking for Conventional Prompt Global Strike Weapons for a while. This not a new concept and given how the US is behaving recently targeting civilian targets it could be that China military planners are looking into the idea of tick for tack conventional attacks, like hitting a Chinese university (an idea that really stupid stooges have said in the past) could be met with missiles raining over CALTECH for example. US bases and assets in the region are still acceptable targets but don't compensate if an attack like the Iranian girl school happen.

Is dangerous because both China and the US could perceive any long range weapon incoming as a nuclear attack.

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RoastGooseHKer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Actually, it's quite simple. The purpose behind China's development of ultra-long-range ASBMs is not just to deny the U.S. military access to waters around China (within 5,000 km), but to put an end to any form of maritime unilateral hegemony across almost all oceanic regions worldwide. To put it even more plainly, the advancement of this technology aims to ensure that the truly effective operational range of any navy is confined to its own immediate vicinity.

What you should consider is that, in reality, the theory familiar to the West—that world control is exercised through maritime power—has essentially collapsed. The Chinese understand very clearly what Westerners, especially Americans, Europeans, and Japanese, are thinking, as well as why the maritime power system was able to dominate and control the world in modern times. But it seems many have yet to grasp this fully.

There is an entire logic behind it, explaining how maritime power suppresses land power, thus forming the rationale that controlling the seas means controlling the world.

Ultra-long-range ASBMs fundamentally disrupt the operational mechanism of this system. In other words, the military foundation that allowed the Western world to lead and colonize the globe no longer exists. This is the core of the issue.

Once you understand this, you won’t misguidedly think this is aimed at Russia or Australia. Neither Russia nor Australia possesses the capability to execute a global hegemony system based on maritime power. The only entities capable of implementing such a system are essentially the United States and its NATO allies. By the way, what China is developing is, when necessary, a conventional military means to completely strip the U.S. and its allies of their armed capability to carry out global maritime blockade missions.
I see. But why didn’t the Soviet Union deploy such weapon (intermediate range anti-ship ballistic missiles with MARV) after the completion of the GLONASS-type global satellite navigation and positioning systems to challenge NATO’s dominance of the sea?

On the other hand, the current Chinese systems (DF-21D, 26D, 17, and 27) relies on a large kill chain comprised of satellites, over the horizon radars, numerous ground-based receiving and transmission nodes, UAV, and even naval vessels, etc. Wouldn’t it be pretty easy to sabotage and target any node of this kill chain to cause the entire system to malfunction?
 

tokenanalyst

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I see. But why didn’t the Soviet Union deploy such weapon (intermediate range anti-ship ballistic missiles with MARV) after the completion of the GLONASS-type global satellite navigation and positioning systems to challenge NATO’s dominance of the sea?

On the other hand, the current Chinese systems (DF-21D, 26D, 17, and 27) relies on a large kill chain comprised of satellites, over the horizon radars, numerous ground-based receiving and transmission nodes, UAV, and even naval vessels, etc. Wouldn’t it be pretty easy to sabotage and target any node of this kill chain to cause the entire system to malfunction?
I think once the missile lock in into the target using an array of sensors it modify its trajectory autonomously to try to hit the target. From recall finding the target could be done by satellites or drones.
 

Engineer

Major
I see. But why didn’t the Soviet Union deploy such weapon (intermediate range anti-ship ballistic missiles with MARV) after the completion of the GLONASS-type global satellite navigation and positioning systems to challenge NATO’s dominance of the sea?
GLONASS is a positioning constellation, not a sensor constellation. Also, technologies back then couldn't fufill requirements.
 

gpt

Junior Member
Registered Member
Future development of ASBMs will focus on more advanced guidance and enhanced penetration capabilities, unless the strike range of future US CSG significantly exceeds 3,000 km, the range of the ASBM will not see a significant increase.

They hinted at developing exotic terminal guidance several years ago. There are many institutes working on this very hard material science problem, this is a promising solution from one team:
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Profile of the
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who led this team.

Basically it's a high-speed infrared camera placed behind an actively cooled IR transparent window. Almost two decades of research went into finding a material that can survive atmospheric ablation while still letting in the right band of IR (THAAD seeker compromises by spending only a few seconds in lower atmosphere), dealing with aero-optical effects on the window, and designing a camera that can take a million shots a second to defeat motion blur.
 

TK3600

Colonel
Registered Member
So what has changed now? Simply put, technological advancements, especially in aerospace and radio (radar technology), have made the battlefield transparent. Today, China fears no maritime threats because it has the eyes to penetrate the fog of war (space-based satellites + advanced radar networks) and rapidly mobile strike weapons, including various missiles, especially ASBMs. The ability to see and strike maritime targets across the entire operational range is what enables China, a land power, to potentially win a maritime war.
Compared to land warfare systems, maritime power has never truly possessed overwhelming force (assuming the weapon generation gap isn’t too large—attacking a small country with only a few million people is always winnable, but such small countries can hardly be said to possess land power). Therefore, if maritime power isn’t primarily about harassment, it has never been truly fearsome. The Eight-Nation Alliance understood this 150–180 years ago. Their victory over China had many preconditions, including that China’s ruling class was already in the late stage of dynastic transition. Even then, they didn’t achieve true occupation of Chinese territory, similar to Japan’s later invasion. Land powers can only be defeated on land by maritime powers when they are in internal turmoil.
Looking at history today, before the founding of New China, China’s ruling class, like some so-called moderate democrats in Iran, harbored illusions about the West, constantly compromising and conceding interests in exchange for temporary security, only to be betrayed time and again.
Thus, in China’s view, future wars will likely involve maritime blockades of Chinese trade far from its coastline, similar to Ming Dynasty wokou harassing China’s coast. For China, competing with the U.S. to build 800 global bases is unnecessary—such bases are just targets, with little real significance.
The real solution is simple: destroy the U.S.’s maritime military capabilities on a large scale. Without naval vessels, or with a maritime force confined to U.S. coastal waters, what deterrent does U.S. hegemony have? In fact, there’s no need to go globally destroying U.S. maritime power. Ray Dalio of Bridgewater has pointed out—and Wall Street now realizes—that the U.S.-Iran war has begun. If the U.S. cannot ultimately control the Strait of Hormuz, the petrodollar will immediately collapse, the U.S. debt crisis will erupt, and the U.S.’s post-WWII global hegemony will instantly crumble. There will be no more U.S. superpower.
Do you understand now? The ultra-long-range ASBM tool is a military instrument to thoroughly dismantle unilateral maritime hegemony, and to end the 400-year Western maritime system (which controls global trade in the industrial era through maritime dominance). Russia has no maritime power; Australia has no maritime power; the dozens of European countries have no maritime power. The true maritime powers are essentially the U.S.+ Europe/Australia/New Zealand/Japan(NATO), and others, who are likely to join the U.S. in blockading China. Ultra-long-range ASBMs are the tools to destroy the fleets and ports executing this so-called maritime blockade.
Clever people might ask: couldn’t others develop ASBMs to target China? I’ll tell you: this tool is only useful for foolish countries seeking hegemony. China has no interest in such hegemony because it understands clearly that such stupid goals only accelerate national decline. If you want to die early despite your country living long and well, go seek hegemony. Looking at Chinese history, the U.S. reached its peak hegemony less than 40 years ago and is already in decline. The Mongol armies that swept through Europe lasted only about a century. Thus, for a society with deep historical awareness like China’s, hegemony is the most foolish goal.
It’s simple: don’t stir up trouble, and there won’t be so many ASBMs targeting your warships. Moreover, China’s industrial scale and retaliatory capability mean it isn’t worried about such threats. Even if other countries develop advanced ASBMs, they pose little threat to China.
That’s why I say ultra-long-range ASBMs are strategic tools to end superpower hegemony—by globally eliminating the navies that underpin hegemony, they terminate the actual existence of hegemony (maritime blockade capability).
P.S. Let me add: I was actually the first to discover the existence of ultra-long-range ASBMs. Ten years ago, in a thesis from the PLA Naval Command College (Dalian), I came across research on using seven re-entry maneuverable warheads with re-entry speeds exceeding 7,000 m/s (the speed of ICBM re-entry vehicles) for cluster strikes against maritime targets. Back then, I posted about it under the title “DF-31 Variant ASBM,” which was even picked up by overseas media.
HGV cannot suppress subs the way it does to surface ships. The same weapon could be used others denying China the surface navy. Once both sides are committed to using subs the detection becomes diffcult again. Needlessly to say the skirmish nature of naval warfare continues, just like mongolian horde of the past. HGV and radar is not changing fog of war. US still has a vast submarine fleet.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
HGV cannot suppress subs the way it does to surface ships. The same weapon could be used others denying China the surface navy. Once both sides are committed to using subs the detection becomes diffcult again. Needlessly to say the skirmish nature of naval warfare continues, just like mongolian horde of the past. HGV and radar is not changing fog of war. US still has a vast submarine fleet.
You’re absolutely right. If this pattern (ultra-long-range ASBMs) continues to develop, the outcome will be that no one can truly possess a fully capable blue‑water navy. Of course, this assumes that in a high‑intensity war, any navy would essentially cease to exist—naturally cleared from the board. The issue is, high‑intensity warfare won’t be the perpetual norm. As I said before: don’t stir up trouble, won’t get hurt (don’t pursue hegemonic control of the seas and global trade, and your navy remains safe).

As for the issue of submarines and other underwater weapons you mentioned, you haven’t quite thought it through. Submarines aren’t permanently submerged; they also require replenishment. Therefore, submarines still need ports for resupply operations, need to surface for crew rotations, material resupply, weapon replenishment, and so on. Additionally, submarines cannot remain submerged indefinitely. Even surface vessels, after three months of continuous missions, take a toll on sailors—it’s the same underwater.

Furthermore, any navy deployed overseas relies on a vast auxiliary fleet—logistics and special‑mission vessels. These are also surface ships; simply attack them.

Today, the U.S. shipbuilding industry alone cannot sustain the basic maintenance and renewal of such a navy. You have submarines? Just eliminate them one by one. Haven’t you seen clearly from the U.S.‑Iran war? Even against a medium‑sized, relatively weak regional power like Iran, the U.S. cannot unilaterally control the pace and intensity of the war. In other words, you can choose when the war starts, but you cannot decide when it ends. China understands this deeply, which is why it does not proactively provoke others (though provocation from others is another matter). Therefore, once such a war begins, it won’t end on your schedule. It could last a month, or it could drag on for ten years. Can the U.S. withstand a decade‑long, sustained war of attrition targeting its military power? In fact, everyone knows the answer.

No one can afford a long‑cycle war—neither the U.S. nor China. But war is about outcomes. China’s system, organizational cohesion, and the people’s understanding and acceptance of the issues allow it to endure such pressure longer than American society. And in the end, the result would inevitably be fighting until the U.S. collapses. Solving a strategic threat once and for all is an acceptable cost for China.

In the end, it’s actually quite likely that the U.S. won’t be foolish enough to reach that point. Before it truly recognizes that its maritime assets could be completely wiped out and its hegemony utterly collapses, it will make the right choice. Believe me, between preserving its core strength, voluntarily relinquishing hegemony to become an influential regional power, and having the foundations of its hegemony completely destroyed—leading to the collapse and fragmentation of American society (breaking into multiple countries)—Americans will choose correctly.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
I see. But why didn’t the Soviet Union deploy such weapon (intermediate range anti-ship ballistic missiles with MARV) after the completion of the GLONASS-type global satellite navigation and positioning systems to challenge NATO’s dominance of the sea?

On the other hand, the current Chinese systems (DF-21D, 26D, 17, and 27) relies on a large kill chain comprised of satellites, over the horizon radars, numerous ground-based receiving and transmission nodes, UAV, and even naval vessels, etc. Wouldn’t it be pretty easy to sabotage and target any node of this kill chain to cause the entire system to malfunction?
First, you’re mistaken. GPS, GNSS, and Beidou are not the tools that make the battlefield transparent. Transparency and the lifting of the fog of war rely on a vast network of space-based, air-based, and sea-based sensors. Strictly speaking, this system is still being developed and perfected. Russia doesn’t have it because it lacks the capability.

Most people probably don’t understand how this works. Actually, back in the 1970s and 1980s, when the U.S. created the Pershing II, it opened the first door to today’s situation—a prototype tool emerged: a weapon system capable of long-range, time-sensitive precision strikes. The various hypersonic weapons we see today (whether air-breathing or boost-glide) are all extensions of the Pershing II concept.

Then, in the 1990s, the U.S. proposed the Network-Centric Warfare system. (Actually, China recognized this early too, because the Chinese military deeply valued intelligence and understood the importance of networks. But at that time, China’s IT and automation levels weren’t enough to fully realize this concept, though a very close understanding had already emerged.) Many people aren’t aware of the timeline in the U.S. plan for Network-Centric Warfare. According to U.S. planning, the complete, fully operational system wasn’t expected to be in place until after 2030.

Only a Network-Centric Warfare system can reliably, with high redundancy, achieve global ocean surveillance. The development and interconnection of each sensor system and subsystem takes at least 20 years. For example, China’s currently recognized space-based observation network consists of over 300 satellites networked together, making it one of the largest Earth observation, synthetic aperture radar, and electronic intelligence collection systems in the world (the other being the U.S.; Russia can be disregarded). It can currently update data for any location within tens of minutes, with plans to achieve a 10-minute refresh rate around 2030 (from memory, I’d need to verify the news reports). Combined with ground-based over-the-horizon skywave radar, surface-wave radar, long-range phased array radar, and unmanned/aerial platforms, this forms the informationized system.

It is the support of this kind of system that enables the penetration of the fog of war. This capability, I believe, is why the U.S. recently strongly suspected that China provided Iran (via Russia) with extensive military satellite intelligence during the U.S.-Iran war. Why would the U.S. suspect this? Because the U.S. is aware of China’s capabilities in satellite reconnaissance. Essentially, many things the U.S. planned to do early on, it hasn’t accomplished much itself, while China has achieved a lot. China and Russia share intelligence, so Russia likely has access to China’s satellite resources.
 
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