QBZ-191 service rifle family

olsage

Just Hatched
Registered Member
But it seems that the PLA is not really interested in LAMs and prefer dedicated night time weapon sights instead. And that makes perfect sense since their opfor are all expected to have comprehensive NV capabilities, so using LAMs for night time combat is going to be highly problematic if not downright suicidal.

Suicidal? Even in circumstances where advanced opfor NV is a major factor (which is by no means all circumstances), why do you assume that PLA operators won't just... practice not doing IR NDs, in the exact same way they'll obviously practice avoiding white light NDs? What do you suggest they do instead? Go in with only white lights? Or will the PLA forgo using those as well because all concievable opfor have "comprehensive visible light capabilities" (eyes)? Of course not.

The PLA does use and will continue to use LAMs. We have seen this multiple times. And in those cases, a metal handguard would be preferable for the aforementioned reason. This IMO is a question of the ongoing modernization effort, not some kind of broad institutional preference.
 

Clango

Junior Member
Registered Member
You only need the hand guard rails to hold zero if you want to mount LAMs on them. But it seems that the PLA is not really interested in LAMs and prefer dedicated night time weapon sights instead. And that makes perfect sense since their opfor are all expected to have comprehensive NV capabilities, so using LAMs for night time combat is going to be highly problematic if not downright suicidal.

If you don’t need the front hand guard to hold zero, why not take the savings in cost and weight by making it plastic instead of aluminium?
so if you're not gonna put a lam there, then what else would that top rail to be with? Literally the only reason to have a pic rail is to have a lam, like this is juat a bizarre half assed way of doing it, either just not have the rail to begin with because putting a lam there will absolutely nuke your zero or have a metal Pic rail so it can actually hold zero, why do you think nobody else bothers with this?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Suicidal? Even in circumstances where advanced opfor NV is a major factor (which is by no means all circumstances), why do you assume that PLA operators won't just... practice not doing IR NDs, in the exact same way they'll obviously practice avoiding white light NDs? What do you suggest they do instead? Go in with only white lights? Or will the PLA forgo using those as well because all concievable opfor have "comprehensive visible light capabilities" (eyes)? Of course not.
Who said anything about NDs? It’s a rather bizarre tangent to jump to. Most half decent LAM all have lock out modes so NDs shouldn’t be an issue at all.

What is far more problematic is the fact that if opfor also have NODs, using LAM is just going to be extremely risky. Because not only will opfor see the IR laser beams and know you are there and aiming, they can potentially also follow the beam back to pinpoint your location.

If you are going up against peer opposition in most combat environments and scenarios, you really want to be using dedicated night time optics, be it IIT based, or more commonly and usefully, thermal weapons sights. That will not only give you true passive aiming without the risk of alerting opfor before you pull the trigger, dedicated night weapons optics are also far more precise than LAM, which means you can vastly extend your efforts engagement range way beyond the 100m range typical with LAM.

The PLA does use and will continue to use LAMs. We have seen this multiple times. And in those cases, a metal handguard would be preferable for the aforementioned reason. This IMO is a question of the ongoing modernization effort, not some kind of broad institutional preference.

LAM is not without its merits, but in peer and near-peer combat, they are rather niche. The one area where LAM really comes into its own is in CQB in urban environments, where the urban surroundings negate much of the downsides of active emitting IR signals opfor can potentially pick up on, and engagement distances are typically close, so precision isn’t needed; while the speed advantage of LAM aiming, especially if paired with strobing IR and/or white light torches, can give you a real edge in . But that is really a niche use more suited for special forces rather than general issue.

so if you're not gonna put a lam there, then what else would that top rail to be with? Literally the only reason to have a pic rail is to have a lam, like this is juat a bizarre half assed way of doing it, either just not have the rail to begin with because putting a lam there will absolutely nuke your zero or have a metal Pic rail so it can actually hold zero, why do you think nobody else bothers with this?

The most obvious answer is a torch, ideally an IR and white light combo unit.

You can also use the front rail to mount IIT and thermal clip-ons, which if designed and built well, are fairly tolerant of a little wobble in the hand guard. It’s not going to let you win any precision shooting competitions, but it will be plenty good enough for most combat scenarios and ranges, and sit comfortably above LAM in terms of both engagement range and precision, but still will be a little inferior to a dedicated night time weapons sight.

Beyond those you really don’t want to be overloading your rifle with LARPer add-ons. Because the first thing guys do after they get combat deployed is strip their rifles of all but the most essential of things. Because you really want your combat weapon as light and streamlined as possible.

Also, I need to ask, have you actually ever shot with LAMs? Because you seem to have a very unrealistic expectation of just how precise that is even with a single piece full length aluminium rail.

In reality, even the best two piece aluminium front hand guards can have a little give to them, and you can throw your zero off a touch from different grip styles. The LAM themselves are also not designed for pinpoint precision, and at 100m you really are down to minute-of-man effective accuracy.

That was plenty good enough against farmers with AKs and just their MK1 eyeballs in a night fight. But in a peer fight between team LAM and team Thermal (clip on or dedicated weapons sights) in any scenario other than room clearing, your LAM guys are going to be at a monumental disadvantage.
 
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Clango

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeah like I thought, the top pic rail is plastic on the handguard, basically useless for holding zero
On the other hand the whole TaC coating thing they were talking about seems to be doing its job as intended, the Bolt Carrier group looks immaculate even though the exterior is visibly roughed up
 

Aniah

Senior Member
Registered Member
so if you're not gonna put a lam there, then what else would that top rail to be with? Literally the only reason to have a pic rail is to have a lam, like this is juat a bizarre half assed way of doing it, either just not have the rail to begin with because putting a lam there will absolutely nuke your zero or have a metal Pic rail so it can actually hold zero, why do you think nobody else bothers with this?
Well, torches like plawolf said, but also PAP, SWAT, and police units also use LAM, and in their urban settings, the hit to accuracy isn't that big of an issue, especially at the ranges they use it in. It may not be the best, but you don't always need to have the best for some uses.
 

Saru

New Member
Registered Member
so if you're not gonna put a lam there, then what else would that top rail to be with? Literally the only reason to have a pic rail is to have a lam, like this is juat a bizarre half assed way of doing it, either just not have the rail to begin with because putting a lam there will absolutely nuke your zero or have a metal Pic rail so it can actually hold zero, why do you think nobody else bothers with this?
It all depends on the quality of the Plastic in itself, I assume the top rail of the handguard uses High-quality polymer such as glass-filled nylon. While there is disadvantages with using plastic in itself, I don't think it's a problem especially when the QBZ191 is meant for Midrange and the QBZ192 for close range so the plastic affecting holding Zero in this instance wouldn't make a noticeable difference unless it passes the 100-150 mark, Obviously if it was Universal the PLA might've approached this differently.

Now what is weird the claims of the QBZ191 hitting the 400 mark the short barrel version QBZ192 hitting the 300 mark. the extended barrel version QBU191 hits the 800 mark.

When typically using plastic on top rail the diminish is noticeable when it passes 100-150 Mark it sounds to me the gun is really good but the cheap handguard holds it back, It is rather the PLA isn't confident enough with whether if their gun will be used in the field or not so they will eventually and probably replace the handguard with a new material that is perhaps cheaper and just as good as Metal China right now is in the innovative generation I wouldn't be shocked if they managed to invent a new synthetic metal that is lighter and cheaper to produce.

That's why the DMR version of the QBZ19 boasts full metal handguard since that is where the holding zero difference is noticeable . It is likely PLA doesn't want to spend too much on guns they might not even get to use it in the field if such opportunity doesn't arise. US army's new XM7 just a good example of overspending without thought now they might not even adopt the next generation rifle after all.

the XM7 Sounds good on paper but in practicality its horrible it also has problems with holding zero. Anyway this isn't about US however I needed to bring up an example.

Now someone can explain this better than me, I'm just gonna leave this as hyperbolic suggestion with flawed info.
 
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bsdnf

Senior Member
Registered Member
Well, torches like plawolf said, but also PAP, SWAT, and police units also use LAM, and in their urban settings, the hit to accuracy isn't that big of an issue, especially at the ranges they use it in. It may not be the best, but you don't always need to have the best for some uses.
Thats being said, SOF usually replaces the handguards with third-party metal ones. The issue of zero drift caused by slight deformation of the plastic outer handguard still exists. When you need a lot of training, you'd better switch to something else.

The most complained-about issue with the 191/192 by SOF is basically the plastic handguards;
 
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Saru

New Member
Registered Member
Thats being said, SOF usually replaces the handguards with third-party metal ones. The issue of zero drift caused by slight deformation of the plastic outer handguard still exists. When you need a lot of training, you'd better switch to something else.

The most complained-about issue with the 191/192 by SOF is basically the plastic handguards;

Yeah, they are looking to change the plastic handguard even the buttstock itself both of them had their complaints by special units.
 
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