Future PLAAF fleet procurement and composition

Blitzo

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I have a feeling the pace of development of the CCA programs will likely play a significant role in shaping the number of manned fighters the PLAAF decides to pursue.

I agree with that to an extent, but for this specific situation (2030 era decision for early retirement of 4.5th gens or not) -- partly because I don't think UCAVs/CCAs will enter sufficient maturity and scale by then to greatly influence manned fighter fleet size of that magnitude by 2030... and partly because even in a system of systems/MUMT approach for air power with CCAs, the system of systems will still be enhanced by having a manned fighter component which is more capable (5th gen) rather than less capable (4.5th gen).

That is to say, even in a system of systems the capability of it will be influenced by the capability of the constituent systems as well.

I.e.: we are still left with the issue of "what to do with the 4.5th gen fighters" circa 2030.
 

Wrought

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I agree with that to an extent, but for this specific situation (2030 era decision for early retirement of 4.5th gens or not) -- partly because I don't think UCAVs/CCAs will enter sufficient maturity and scale by then to greatly influence manned fighter fleet size of that magnitude by 2030... and partly because even in a system of systems/MUMT approach for air power with CCAs, the system of systems will still be enhanced by having a manned fighter component which is more capable (5th gen) rather than less capable (4.5th gen).

That is to say, even in a system of systems the capability of it will be influenced by the capability of the constituent systems as well.

I.e.: we are still left with the issue of "what to do with the 4.5th gen fighters" circa 2030.

Seems like a real no-brainer to just expand reserve squadrons.
 

Blitzo

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Seems like a real no-brainer to just expand reserve squadrons.

We are talking about some 700 fighter aircraft here.

That's not just a matter of expansion, but basically a wholesale restructuring of the PLAAF into a much larger force. It's the opposite of a no-brainer, if anything it would have to reflect a desire for the PLA to be significantly larger for the long term.

The consequences for basing, personnel demand, and overall funding, and what the PLAAF is structured for, is huge.


That's why there is no easy answer to this matter. Even the idea of expanding the PLAAF isn't one that can just be tossed out as a forgone conclusion, because of the scale of new build 5th gens that is expected to be procured (and the 4.5th gens they may displace), means the net fleet expansion will be a fighter fleet growth of some 30-40% depending on how one measures it.
 

Gloire_bb

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Let's first reiterate that we have no APKWS equivalent that we know of in PLA service, and we don't know if such a system would be a straight up structural adaptation of any existing rocket pod system they have.
For the purposes of discussion, let's be generous and assume such a solution would be adapting an existing rocket pod.

My question is, so what? That just means one weapons system to integrate onto 5th gens -- considering what is at stake is a difference of 700 aircraft continuing to be 4.5th gen or mothballed in favour of 700 5th gens, that seems like a minor price to pay.
We're talking about critical vulnerability to perhaps the most relevant black horse weapon system of today, one which is specifically deployed at scale by two critical bluefors(US & Island).
It's certainly feasible to have it done a long way around, develop new, specialized pods, rockets and do rest of the stages per old good CIA sabotage guide.
Things like APKWS isn't even WVR, it's for targeting low end one way attack drones.
If you want to make it a mission for PLA tactical fighters as standard, that's fine, but don't make it sound like integrating it onto 5th gen aircraft is somehow such a burdensome task that it outweighs the rest of the consequences of keeping around 700 4.5th gen airframes versus 700 5th gen airframes for the overall fleet!
APKWS shoots anything, their range in pursuit isn't terribly lower than sidewinder. They're certainly used (already) to shoot LACMs too.
It is a critical task for +5 years to come (2026-31), with another +5 not really well seen but likely (where will tech race go? worst case, it would be unwise to end up around drone at all, and it's better not to juuust about finish integrations at that point of time - i.e. it's better to have discardable capability which will wind down anyway).
Whatever the case, fighters which have rocket integration are most of the way there already. For fighter without it you have to do full weapon trial cycle, probably disrupting your normal integration work (F-35 case with weapon integration pipeline stretching into mid-2030s), and it not necessarily will end up well (F/A-18E/F failed apkws).
Note that even if not-APKWS delivered literally tomorrow, it'll become a fleet capability(for 4th gen force) more like within ~2-3 years; APKWS isn't fleet wide skill in USAF fighter force yet. If we add development(even emergency one) and weapon trials, we're pushing solution into 2030s. And who knows who'll be hunting whom at that point. Drones already try to bite back.
You were talking about self protection jamming; F-35 at any rate has 360 degree active EW emitters for self protection (in addition to things like towed decoys). The use of its frontal AESA for jamming is not for "self protection" but for more offensive purposes.
535ed6ab69bedd22289c9154

NAVAIR hopefully is authorative enough. It almost certainly does not; only locating emission location. "Band array"(on known F-35 technical diagram) doesn't mean it's active.
Funny that, 2030+ is in the "future".
We're still in early 2026. It's certainly future, and moreover there's certainly enough years rest to fit a major war in, and honestly very likely to have the one we're talking about here quite often.
If one accepts that the PLA will see significant addition of 5th gen airframes from now to 2030 (and afterwards as well), then you only have two options:
- Either expand the overall size of the manned fighter fleet post 2030.
- Or retain about a similar manned fighter fleet size, and retire 4.5th gen aircraft a bit earlier than their airframe lives would project.
For the next +10 years 4.5 generation fighters with readily integratable capability set(shortest path to capability at scale) is the best corse of action. Especially when alternative force is more useful elsewhere.
We already saw how most advanced leech type air forces on collector's edition F-35s can't intercept a dozen of pieces of foam with petrol engine(and intercepted local property instead); this is just not a good example to follow.
Talk about emergency problems isn't as sexy as discussing future iterations of force - this is absolutely a problem hitting all armed forces IRL for decades (pushing excel lines with higher combat coefficients, for higher net force, is better for both cool factors and promotions).
But there's a price to pay for that, as we see between two 3-day special military operations by two different countries.
 
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Blitzo

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For the next +10 years 4.5 generation fighters with readily integratable capability set(shortest path to capability at scale) is the best corse of action. Especially when alternative force is more useful elsewhere.
We already saw how most advanced leech type air forces on collector's edition F-35s can't intercept a dozen of pieces of foam with petrol engine(and intercepted local property instead); this is just not a good example to follow.
I fully understand, that talk about emergency problems isn't as sexy as discussing future iterations of force - this is absolutely a problem hitting all armed forces for decades (pushing excel lines with higher combat coefficients for higher net force is better for both cool factors and promotions).
But there's a price to pay for that, as we see between two 3-day special military operations by two different countries.

Look, this is the only part I'm interested in (the rest is largely window dressing).

Just tell me, between the two options I listed, do you:
A) expand the fighter fleet size, allowing new build 5th gens to serve with existing 4.5th gens?
OR
B) keep the same approximate fighter fleet size, and choose to either mothball 4.5th gens slightly ahead of their service life ending, or mothball the new build 5th gens fresh off the production line?

Because what you've written is not an answer.
 

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
Look, this is the only part I'm interested in (the rest is largely window dressing).

Just tell me, between the two options I listed, do you:
A) expand the fighter fleet size, allowing new build 5th gens to serve with existing 4.5th gens?
OR
B) keep the same approximate fighter fleet size, and choose to either mothball 4.5th gens slightly ahead of their service life ending, or mothball the new build 5th gens fresh off the production line?

Because what you've written is not an answer.
I'd probably chose between either A (expand fighter fleet size) or C (slow down 5th generation production as we hit desirerd force level floors, limiting fighter production to keep up&going more towards 6th gen). I personally would do C, but this is going beyond "preferences" to geopolitical planning on level of the 001 himself, and i am quite obviously not him or anyone remotely close. Choice between A and B/C is political.

Option B seems wrong, because for premature mothballing, current capability list of 5th generation fighters have to absolutely cover 4.5th gen fighters (dreadnought moment).
It does not, especially on a shorter notice, and this will (currently) significantly downgrade overall combat capability of the force (though will make it look better indeed).
 

Wrought

Captain
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We are talking about some 700 fighter aircraft here.

That's not just a matter of expansion, but basically a wholesale restructuring of the PLAAF into a much larger force. It's the opposite of a no-brainer, if anything it would have to reflect a desire for the PLA to be significantly larger for the long term.

The consequences for basing, personnel demand, and overall funding, and what the PLAAF is structured for, is huge.


That's why there is no easy answer to this matter. Even the idea of expanding the PLAAF isn't one that can just be tossed out as a forgone conclusion, because of the scale of new build 5th gens that is expected to be procured (and the 4.5th gens they may displace), means the net fleet expansion will be a fighter fleet growth of some 30-40% depending on how one measures it.
Reserve squadrons takes a lot more than just pilots. You will need more maintenance crew to handle the extra load. Machines can't be just mothballed and put in service right away. Constant maintenance is required even when it's not in use.

I take it as a given that PLAAF is looking to expand its fleet, considering the state of the neighborhood and the unpleasantly high risk of conflict over the next decade. Naturally resources are finite, and so any expansion has to be weighed against opportunity costs, but it would seem a safe assumption that PLAAF would not send demand signals to AVIC—in the form of 5th-gen production capacity expansions which have been discussed here in detail—if it did not intend to procure the corresponding aircraft.

The reason I called it a no-brainer in particular was because PLAAF currently lacks an Air National Guard or equivalent reserve outfit, largely because there simply weren't enough modern aircraft to go around—and still aren't to this day. Insofar as past constraints are ameliorated and lots of otherwise-useful 4.5-gen airframes become superfluous to frontline duty, reallocating them to reserves seems like the obvious choice.
 

Blitzo

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I'd probably chose between either A (expand fighter fleet size) or C (slow down 5th generation production as we hit desirerd force level floors, limiting fighter production to keep up&going more towards 6th gen). I personally would do C, but this is going beyond "preferences" to geopolitical planning on level of the 001 himself, and i am quite obviously not him or anyone remotely close. Choice between A and B/C is political.

Option B seems wrong, because for premature mothballing, current capability list of 5th generation fighters have to absolutely cover 4.5th gen fighters (dreadnought moment).
It does not, especially on a shorter notice, and this will (currently) significantly downgrade overall combat capability of the force (though will make it look better indeed).

Okay that's fine.

So you're saying you think they should expand overall fleet size a little bit, while slowing down 5th gen procurement, and keep all the 4.5th gens around for their lifespans.

I fundamentally disagree with that idea because I think all of the reasons for keeping 4.5th gens around can be solved by integrating the desired lower end/bomb truck capabilities and systems onto 5th gen aircraft in an appropriate fashion and timeline while offering much greater high end war fighting capability relative to 4.5th gens ---- but at least I can understand your priorities.

I take it as a given that PLAAF is looking to expand its fleet, considering the state of the neighborhood and the unpleasantly high risk of conflict over the next decade. Naturally resources are finite, and so any expansion has to be weighed against opportunity costs, but it would seem a safe assumption that PLAAF would not send demand signals to AVIC—in the form of 5th-gen production capacity expansions which have been discussed here in detail—if it did not intend to procure the corresponding aircraft.

The reason I called it a no-brainer in particular was because PLAAF currently lacks an Air National Guard or equivalent reserve outfit, largely because there weren't enough modern aircraft to go around—and still aren't to this day. As past constraints are ameliorated and lots of 4.5-gen airframes become superfluous to frontline duty, shifting them to reserves seems like the obvious choice.

I'm okay with the idea of the PLAAF expanding its fleet as a way of solving this question but I very much would not treat it as "a given".

If anything I would describe the scale of expansion we are talking about, as an epoch defining expansion of PLAAF fleet size that should be treated with significant consideration.
 

Wrought

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I'm okay with the idea of the PLAAF expanding its fleet as a way of solving this question but I very much would not treat it as "a given".

If anything I would describe the scale of expansion we are talking about, as an epoch defining expansion of PLAAF fleet size that should be treated with significant consideration.

I said it is a given they are looking to expand their fleet. Whether this is specifically the way they decide to carry out said expansion, and whether for example they elect to keep J-16s around while scrapping J-10s, is a different question and one for which I think it's perfectly fair to admit to a large degree of uncertainty.
 
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