09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

mister unknown

New Member
Registered Member
One thing to bear in mind is that the PLAN has displayed precisely zero interest in an SSGN design to date. While technical limitations would have played a big part in that decision (no one would seriously rate an 092 or even 094 hull based SSGN’s ability to get within cruise missile range of CONUS to make such a type worthwhile) , I think another key consideration would be strategic clarity.

China has demonstrated a very clear and deliberate segregation of its tactical and nuclear strike missiles when it comes to land based ballistic missile regiments, that I think it would make zero sense for it to risk muddying the waters as it were, to introduce SSGNs that are effectively indistinguishable from SSBNs to enemy subs and sub hunting assets. The reasoning is simple, SSGNs are legitimate targets in a conventional war, but killing SSBNs would immediately risk crossing the nuclear threshold by presenting a use it or loose it dilemma.

I think the PLAN may well decide to purposefully not pursue a traditional SSGN to remove all possibility of doubt, to both sides, that the second USN starts to take shots at PLAN boomers is the moment China concludes that America is seeking to escalate into the nuclear domain, and react accordingly immediately.

This may also be a secondary rationale for continued and ongoing mass production of late block 093s, that rather than use boomer hulls for its SSGNs, that China will instead use SSNs for that role.

Not only would this preserve strategic clarify with regards to nuclear strike capabilities, it will also mean that the PLAN’s long range cruise missile strike capabilities are more distributed across many more SSN hulls instead of concentrated on a much smaller number of boomer hulls, which adds much more redundancy and tactical flexibility in their use.

If this is the case, then it means we should not read too much into continued 093 parallel production to 095s, as they will then be for very different purposes and missions, as the 093 may well get the Virginia treatment with stretched hulls to accommodate more VLS in future blocks.
If I'm interpreting the argument correctly, you're saying that the PLAN won't build SSGNs in the near term because of its desire for

1. Clear separation of nuclear & non-nuclear assets, &

2. Distributed lethality (to borrow an American catch phrase).

I understand the need for #2, but I question whether #1 is still a strict doctrine, when the PLARF has openly declared other assets to have both nuclear & conventional missions (e.g. DF-26/27). But perhaps that can be discussed further in another thread related to nuclear deterrence.
 
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lcloo

Major
I don't think PLAN actually has extensive sonar networks as people thought in the SCS, coastal regions and territorial waters maybe but not in the claimed seas. Wasn't there some report about a foreign SSK lurking near coastal waters found only after it was entangled in some fishing net or was I misremembering this one, but point is PLAN underwater surveillance network do not seem to be as advanced, layered and widespread as most people here expect.
That was the Australian Oberon class submarine caught in fishing net off Shanghai in 1992. In 1992 there was probably no sonar network deployed or more likely China did not have such technology at that time. Chinese sonar tech has advanced a lot since then.
 

Lethe

Captain
China has demonstrated a very clear and deliberate segregation of its tactical and nuclear strike missiles when it comes to land based ballistic missile regiments, that I think it would make zero sense for it to risk muddying the waters as it were, to introduce SSGNs that are effectively indistinguishable from SSBNs to enemy subs and sub hunting assets. The reasoning is simple, SSGNs are legitimate targets in a conventional war, but killing SSBNs would immediately risk crossing the nuclear threshold by presenting a use it or loose it dilemma.

From Norman Polmar & Edward Whitman's Hunters and Killers Vol. 2: Anti-Submarine Warfare from 1943, p. 157:

In the early 1980s U.S. officials began to discuss publicly the Western anti-SSBN strategy. Probably the first official pronouncement of U.S. intentions was a 1985 statement by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman that U.S. submarines would attack Soviet ballistic missile submarines "in the first five minutes of the war." In January 1986, the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral James Watkins, wrote that "we will wage an aggressive campaign against all Soviet submarines, including ballistic missile submarines." (Earlier, Watkins had observed that the shallow, ice-covered waters of the Soviet coastal seas were "a beautiful place to hide" for Soviet SSBNs.)

Some Americans-military and civilian- addressing U.S. anti-SSBN operations advocated the sinking of Soviet SSBNs during a crisis period, on the grounds that those missile submarines constituted a strategic reserve force." The semi-official Center for Naval Analyses concluded "that the Soviets planned to withhold their SLBM force during the conventional stages of a war with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and during initial nuclear strikes in order to provide either a second-strike capability or to retain a bargaining chip during [war-termination] negotiations." With the loss of those SSBNs, the argument went, the Soviet government would have to re-analyze its "correlation" of strategic forces. The loss of those missile submarines, with their "second strike" capability, could possibly deter the Soviets from escalating to an all-out nuclear conflict. On the other hand. some observers believed that rapidly sinking SSBNs would force the Soviet leadership to "use them or lose them," thus increasing the possibility of nuclear conflict.

But all Western theories and (presumably) plans for an anti-SSBN campaign soon encountered the realities of ASW: Would U.S. hunter-killer forces- air, surface, or submarine--be able to distinguish between Soviet SSBNs and SSNs? How would the Soviet leadership "know" that their SSBNs were being sunk and hence that it had to undertake the re-analysis of its remaining strategic forces? One U.S. naval officer. Commander David W. Hearding, asked, "How will the Soviets keep an accurate count of their surviving SSBN assets to evaluate the correlation of strategic forces? Viable SSBNs won't sacrifice covertness to report their status. Communications from [attacked] SSBNs would vary from unreliable to nonexistent, particularly under ice."

My understanding is that the Soviet "bastion" strategy for its SSBNs arose from the convergence of multiple factors:

(1) The development of truly intercontinental range missiles that could strike CONUS without entering the North Atlantic.
(2) Acoustic conditions under the ice that were favourable for hiding ballistic missile submarines.
(3) The ongoing technical inferiority of Soviet submarines, at least in the critical fields of signatures and sensing.

So the "bastion" strategy was a good idea, but it was fundamentally a defensive response grounded in Soviet inferiority. Further, the bastion strategy required a considerable portion of the Soviet SSN inventory to be devoted to protecting them, leaving fewer boats available for trailing American SSBNs, interdicting SLOCs, engaging NATO HVUs or other distant taskings. The American Seawolf program was designed to restore advantages in sensing and particularly quieting that had been progressively eroded in the latter decades of the Cold War, but its broader strategic function, in threatening the Soviet bastions, was to draw a considerable portion of the Soviet SSN inventory to defending them, offering the American submarines a "target rich" environment while confronting Soviet submarines (and other ASW assets) with a high risk of red-on-red encounters.

One conclusion I draw from this is the importance of achieving technological parity and implementing it at scale. The extent to which 09V achieves this relative to Virginia Block III and beyond, is therefore of fundamental significance. Without delving into the debates about the potential role of SSGNs against CONUS, I do believe that, even if the PLA's fundamental objectives remain more localised, they will need to move beyond even an expanded strategic framework of denial to embrace capabilities and doctrines that can fundamentally alter the American calculus closer to home. One example of this would be to develop the capabilities required to credibly (which is not to say reliably or consistently) tail American SSBNs. Despite considerable efforts, this is something that the Soviets apparently never really managed to do.

It should be noted that the American SSBN inventory is entering a period of relative vulnerability: the Ohio-class SSBNs are now definitively old, both in terms of their design characteristics and the mechanical wear-and-tear over decades of service that may well have degraded their "as-designed" signatures, while the Columbia-class program will unfold only gradually throughout the 2030s. If 09V has indeed managed to converge with the global state of the art in the relevant fundamental aspects (signatures, sensing, tactical speed) and if it can be deployed at scale and in a timely fashion, there may be hitherto unprecedented possibilities in that regard.
 
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ZeEa5KPul

Brigadier
Registered Member
There's another aspect I haven't seen discussed in this thread: navigation. One of the weaknesses of SSNs is that they occasionally need to surface to get some outside position fix like GPS (or a sextant through the periscope) to calibrate their dead reckoning systems - mechanical and laser gyroscopes and so forth.

One very interesting new solution to this navigation problem is a quantum method called cold atom interferometry. As I understand it, the whole setup (the lasers, the vacuum chamber for the rubidium atoms, and other components) used to occupy an entire room a decade ago but can now be shrunk down to about the size of a fridge. A classical dead reckoning navigation system can be off by as much as a kilometer over 24 hours through accumulated errors. This could operate for months without drifting by more than a few meters.

What it needs is a very reliable and steady power source, which is an overlooked advantage of a turboelectric over a purely mechanical submarine.
 

Wrought

Captain
Registered Member
One thing Jane's is still good for occasionally, is having the money to buy satellite imagery lol.

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I don't understand this thought process, I really don't.

The SSN is seen moored in a dock at the shipyard, and according to measurements derived from the imagery, the submarine has an approximate length of 110 m and a beam of 12 m.

As such, the new SSN is largely similar to the People's Liberation Army Navy's (PLAN's) fleet of Shang (Type 093)-class of SSNs in terms of its overall length, beam, and displacement.
 
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