Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36)

LurkerZhu

New Member
Registered Member
"Aircraft are classified, but missiles are top secret." The currently revealed PL-15 and PL-17 are products whose designs were finalized nearly 10 years ago; there are even reports that they have ceased production. As for the performance of the new missiles... just guess.

Chahuahui's point is that before 6th-gen fighters enter service, high-performance new radars are critical for 5th-gen fighters engaging each other. However, the MANNED UNITs of the 6th-gen system will likely enter the order of battle much earlier than many people think, which would render the radar arms race between 5th-gen fighters meaningless. And this isn't about rushing the schedule; they are simply that fast. As for the UNMANNED UNITs—some of them were already shown to the public last September.
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
"Aircraft are classified, but missiles are top secret." The currently revealed PL-15 and PL-17 are products whose designs were finalized nearly 10 years ago; there are even reports that they have ceased production. As for the performance of the new missiles... just guess.

Chahuahui's point is that before 6th-gen fighters enter service, high-performance new radars are critical for 5th-gen fighters engaging each other. However, the MANNED UNITs of the 6th-gen system will likely enter the order of battle much earlier than many people think, which would render the radar arms race between 5th-gen fighters meaningless. And this isn't about rushing the schedule; they are simply that fast. As for the UNMANNED UNITs—some of them were already shown to the public last September.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are so convinced that the 6th gen timelines will be very similar to 5th gen ones. I think one of the key goals for 6th gen and forward is a much quicker timeline. We've seen the incredible development speed China can muster in the commercial sector, so IMO it's not out of the realm of possibility that similar things can be accomplished in the military sector. Development can be sped up tremendously if many steps can proceed in parallel. It's usually cost-prohibitive to do so, but if you have an excess of engineering talent and industrial base then that might not be the case. The same engineering talent and industrial base that enabled China's commercial sector development speed can very well enable the same for military projects.
 

mangchaocs

New Member
Registered Member
If you look at the PLAAF’s current lineup and then at how J-36 has changed in just over a year, it honestly gives two completely opposite impressions.

On one side, J-20A/S — which could be called “5.5 gen” in a way (and I really don’t see a true peer single-platform rival right now) — are already in service. J-35/35A are also in serial production. Meanwhile, the U.S. sixth-gen is still dragging, and even F-35 upgrades haven’t been smooth. So if J-36 has flown at least two very different-looking configs within one year, you could read that as confidence: when you’re ahead and not under time pressure, you can afford to test different design paths and try bold ideas.

But flip it around: if in just one year J-36 has compressed what took J-20 about four years before first flight (just my guess), then maybe this isn’t “relaxed experimentation” at all. Maybe it shows urgency — a strong push to widen the lead while the window is still open.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
If you look at the PLAAF’s current lineup and then at how J-36 has changed in just over a year, it honestly gives two completely opposite impressions.

On one side, J-20A/S — which could be called “5.5 gen” in a way (and I really don’t see a true peer single-platform rival right now) — are already in service. J-35/35A are also in serial production. Meanwhile, the U.S. sixth-gen is still dragging, and even F-35 upgrades haven’t been smooth. So if J-36 has flown at least two very different-looking configs within one year, you could read that as confidence: when you’re ahead and not under time pressure, you can afford to test different design paths and try bold ideas.

But flip it around: if in just one year J-36 has compressed what took J-20 about four years before first flight (just my guess), then maybe this isn’t “relaxed experimentation” at all. Maybe it shows urgency — a strong push to widen the lead while the window is still open.
If your program design is efficient, well resourced, and effectively integrating modern development tools well you will get a lot of time budget gains that you can spend however which way you like.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
"Aircraft are classified, but missiles are top secret." The currently revealed PL-15 and PL-17 are products whose designs were finalized nearly 10 years ago; there are even reports that they have ceased production. As for the performance of the new missiles... just guess.

Chahuahui's point is that before 6th-gen fighters enter service, high-performance new radars are critical for 5th-gen fighters engaging each other. However, the MANNED UNITs of the 6th-gen system will likely enter the order of battle much earlier than many people think, which would render the radar arms race between 5th-gen fighters meaningless. And this isn't about rushing the schedule; they are simply that fast. As for the UNMANNED UNITs—some of them were already shown to the public last September.

But arrival of 6th gens does not render the radar arms race between 5th gens meaningless even if we ignore how long it would take to build up 6th gen numbers.

As far as we assume (and it's admittedly a poor assumption), 6th gens will also be using conventional radars. Any significant advancement and advantage made in the radar field will benefit all generations that can receive the technology upgrades. 6th gen arrival would represent a different source of advantage but run in parallel to continued radar technology improvements for 5th gens.

It would be good to have J-20s and J-35s shooting at F-35s and F-22s from 100s of km away rather than have the only means of gaining an upper hand with 6th gen use.

At the moment, J-20A and J-20S are basically confirmed to be using a new generation of GaN on SiC radars that supposedly are many times more effective than the previous generation of AESAs they've replaced. This is already at least 1 step ahead of the F-35 and more than 2 steps ahead of the F-22 sans upgrade. PL-15 is generally better than AIM-120D and PL-16 is sort of equal to AIM-260 but the AIM-260 is a newer missile and just arrived on the scene. PL-17 is generally better than the repurposed SAM AIM-174B and there is likely to be a successor missile to the PL-17.

So as things stand, J-35 and J-20 should have superior radars to F-22 and F-35 and superior or equal missiles. F-22 and F-35 should have better stealth. J-16 has better radar, missiles, payload capacity, range and overall kinematic performance compared to the F-18E/F and is roughly an equal with regional F-15s (I'm being a bit conservative here tbh). Not even counting China's newer missiles still shrouded in secrecy, or China's far superior rate of production and progress, this is already a comfortable position to be in at least to entirely discourage US military action. Both sides are trying to avoid military escalation for their own reasons where the defensive is the focus and the US is pushing for military action while it is still strong where the offensive is the focus. Time is crumbling the US and reinforcing China's ascend while it's still in its trajectory of capitalising on education and infrastructure investments made in previous decades.

Bringing 6th gen and UADFs or heavy CCAs into the discussion is not even necessary. China is hands down so far ahead in reality, only the strongest copium is consumed in the West on those topics. Let them sleep. They think F-15s can wipe the floor against J-20As when in reality, even fighters like J-10C and J-16 will be shooting down F-22s and F-35s.
 

Aval

Junior Member
Registered Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having two simultaneous next-gen fighter programmes at a similar state of development and in EMD with the aim for both to reach service a novel situation?

We've all seen the analogies to the YF-22 vs YF-23 prototype flyoff and X-32 and X-35 tech demonstrator flyoff, but in both cases there was always only the intent for one design to be selected for mass production and service. This is directly mirrored by the CAC J-20 and SAC J-XX (J-21?) competition, although there was no flyoff as is the Chinese MIC style. In the US, the winning design would still take on the losing design's manufacturer as a secondary partner for production of airframe components and subsystems, effectively sharing their MIC talent pool even if only one manufacturer won the main contract.

For the F-22 and F-35, the latter was only seriously developed after completion of the former, allowing critical MIC talents to shift between the two design teams, especially since they belonged to the same manufacturer. For the J-20 and J-35, the story was similar, except I suppose they were designed by different bureaus (but were under the same state-run umbrella organisation, so the talent pool could be shared).

But the J-XDC and J-XDS are different. We're seeing milestones being hit by both programmes (fuel dumping tests, pitot tube removal, perhaps even exhaust changes with J-XDS to mirror the obvious ones we see with J-XDC) merely months or weeks apart, and both seem to continue developing in parallel. Either they're still before final selection, or both programmes aim to produce a service product.

I understand that the YF-22 vs YF-23, X-32 vs X-35 and J-20 vs J-21 are all examples of competing designs for the same role and not directly comparable to F-22/F-35 and J-20/J-35, but even so there has not been a case of two next-gen fighter programmes of different roles/weight-classes being developed in parallel and at comparable stages. F-22 -> F-35 and J-20 -> J-35 were developed sequentially.

I bring this up because I believe we have underestimated China's military aviation MIC talent pool in the 2020s. Even during the height of American power, they still developed their next-gen fighters sequentially (F-15 in 1972, F-16 in 1974, F-22 in 1990, F-35 in 2006), suggesting they only had sufficient "critical mass" of talents in the MIC to complete one programme at a time, a situation that was reflected by China in the 2010s (J-20 in 2011, J-35 in 2021). Unless Chinese engineers are working on J-XDC at day and J-XDS by night, it suggests that nowadays there are a lot more talents in the industry. The closest period of the American MIC was the F-15/F-16 era, since there was some years of overlapping parallel development but still remained a few years staggered.

I don't want to jump the gun, but if this is true, it means historical analogies become less useful for future predictions (especially of development timelines) since we may already be seeing the most expansive (in terms of number of critical individuals, i.e., "talents") military aviation MIC the world has ever seen. Chinese 6th-gen may actually reach IOC in a shorter timeframe than it took J-20/J-35. I personally wouldn't bet on it yet, but the evidence is becoming compelling. Perhaps IOC by Mao's birthday in December 2029?
 

mack8

Senior Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

There is speculation based on the stats that they may want to integrate YJ-19 with J-36. (One of the scenarios is Mach 2.00 at 14KM altitude)

No idea what the Mach 4 test is about. Maybe 7th Gen???

View attachment 169704
Didn't we had few months ago similar high Mach launching specs for a different missile (i forget which one now)? Maybe it's for that high Mach aircraft we've seen in sat pics.
 

sunnymaxi

Colonel
Registered Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having two simultaneous next-gen fighter programmes at a similar state of development and in EMD with the aim for both to reach service a novel situation?

We've all seen the analogies to the YF-22 vs YF-23 prototype flyoff and X-32 and X-35 tech demonstrator flyoff, but in both cases there was always only the intent for one design to be selected for mass production and service. This is directly mirrored by the CAC J-20 and SAC J-XX (J-21?) competition, although there was no flyoff as is the Chinese MIC style. In the US, the winning design would still take on the losing design's manufacturer as a secondary partner for production of airframe components and subsystems, effectively sharing their MIC talent pool even if only one manufacturer won the main contract.

For the F-22 and F-35, the latter was only seriously developed after completion of the former, allowing critical MIC talents to shift between the two design teams, especially since they belonged to the same manufacturer. For the J-20 and J-35, the story was similar, except I suppose they were designed by different bureaus (but were under the same state-run umbrella organisation, so the talent pool could be shared).

But the J-XDC and J-XDS are different. We're seeing milestones being hit by both programmes (fuel dumping tests, pitot tube removal, perhaps even exhaust changes with J-XDS to mirror the obvious ones we see with J-XDC) merely months or weeks apart, and both seem to continue developing in parallel. Either they're still before final selection, or both programmes aim to produce a service product.

I understand that the YF-22 vs YF-23, X-32 vs X-35 and J-20 vs J-21 are all examples of competing designs for the same role and not directly comparable to F-22/F-35 and J-20/J-35, but even so there has not been a case of two next-gen fighter programmes of different roles/weight-classes being developed in parallel and at comparable stages. F-22 -> F-35 and J-20 -> J-35 were developed sequentially.

I bring this up because I believe we have underestimated China's military aviation MIC talent pool in the 2020s. Even during the height of American power, they still developed their next-gen fighters sequentially (F-15 in 1972, F-16 in 1974, F-22 in 1990, F-35 in 2006), suggesting they only had sufficient "critical mass" of talents in the MIC to complete one programme at a time, a situation that was reflected by China in the 2010s (J-20 in 2011, J-35 in 2021). Unless Chinese engineers are working on J-XDC at day and J-XDS by night, it suggests that nowadays there are a lot more talents in the industry. The closest period of the American MIC was the F-15/F-16 era, since there was some years of overlapping parallel development but still remained a few years staggered.

I don't want to jump the gun, but if this is true, it means historical analogies become less useful for future predictions (especially of development timelines) since we may already be seeing the most expansive (in terms of number of critical individuals, i.e., "talents") military aviation MIC the world has ever seen. Chinese 6th-gen may actually reach IOC in a shorter timeframe than it took J-20/J-35. I personally wouldn't bet on it yet, but the evidence is becoming compelling. Perhaps IOC by Mao's birthday in December 2029?
Nope. CAC and SAC are two separate entities having own chief designer with separate talent pool. they don't share talent and obvious they comes under AVIC.

J-35 didn't develop in 2021, its roots goes back to FC-31. which made its maiden flight in 2012. and J-35 design team average age is 33 years only.

J-36/J-XD designed by two different school of thoughts. CAC and SAC fiercely compete with each other.

as i said earlier, despite being the later comer China rewriting the rules of military aviation. thanks to the largest talent pool in human history and industrial base. just look at the number of engineers each year graduate from Universities.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
Nope. CAC and SAC are two separate entities having own chief designer with separate talent pool. they don't share talent and obvious they comes under AVIC.
While it is true that the two entities don't share talent pool, they are both under the same parent company AVIC and will share many critical technologies. It is hard to imagine that YangWei, after he was put in charge of AVIC, would not move key staff from Chengdu to Shengyang to boost the research capability of Shengyang. To see two sixth gen fighters coming out from the two corporations at about the same time while using similar controls for a tailless design, one can't help but wonder if the control of the sixth gen fighters are shared. We also saw Xian flying something similar. They have not been know to have any advanced research abilities to develop these kinds of control system in the past. So while there is fierce competition, they do share technology when it is needed.
 
Top