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GZDRefugee

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MOFA needs to shut the fuck up. Nobody who has a passing understanding of history and geopolitics believes that the world ever operated on anything besides law of the jungle. They were handed the perfect conditions to undermine the legitimacy of the status quo and they decided to blow it by spouting some useless virtue signalling bullshit.
 

Thecore

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MOFA needs to shut the fuck up. Nobody who has a passing understanding of history and geopolitics believes that the world ever operated on anything besides law of the jungle. They were handed the perfect conditions to undermine the legitimacy of the status quo and they decided to blow it by spouting some useless virtue signalling bullshit.
Ehhh... there is utility to donning the velvet glove with an iron fist inside as the US has successfully demonstrated with its ability to "brand" itself prior to Donny boy's naked cruelty. Besides the true believers (ie. morons), most people don't completely fall for any country's egalitarian claims as an attempt to mask pure geopolitical ambition. However, if the country in question shows an effort to couch their goals with something nice to say, for some reason (some psychological fallacy in human beings as a whole I think), people are way more willing to accept, even with huge amounts of cognitive dissonance scratching at the back of their minds.
 

Randomuser

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MOFA needs to shut the fuck up. Nobody who has a passing understanding of history and geopolitics believes that the world ever operated on anything besides law of the jungle. They were handed the perfect conditions to undermine the legitimacy of the status quo and they decided to blow it by spouting some useless virtue signalling bullshit.
Its just standard protocol stuff. Even though we deep down know its a load of crap, its still something that has to be done to give the view of professionalism. Thats just how governments or rather bureaucracy works. Thats why you see EU constantly issuing all these worthlress statements as well coz they too are filled with a lot of these government workers.
 

AndrewS

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MOFA needs to shut the fuck up. Nobody who has a passing understanding of history and geopolitics believes that the world ever operated on anything besides law of the jungle. They were handed the perfect conditions to undermine the legitimacy of the status quo and they decided to blow it by spouting some useless virtue signalling bullshit.

The status quo is predictable and actually suits China fine.
 

tamsen_ikard

Captain
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Repression can only resolve domestic discontent in Iran in the short term. For long-term stability, the Iranian government needs to implement reforms. Iran has long been subject to sanctions, resulting in a relatively low standard of living for its people. However, the government's distribution of resources is significantly unfair; this is a problem Iran needs to address.
I believe your understanding of the Tiananmen Square incident is largely flawed. The Chinese government did not define all those demonstrating in Tiananmen Square as traitors. Most of them had legitimate reasons to express their dissatisfaction with the government. It was only a few bloody clashes against security personnel that changed the nature of the entire event.

Gorbachev and numerous communist regimes collapsed while trying to reform and loosen up too much. The counter example of regimes that did survive are actually regimes who tightened up, massively. I am talking about China after Tiananmen and North Korea.

North Korea is an example of a country that under extreme sanction pressure and regime change pressure that still survived because went extreme with crackdowns and idelogical tightening. It made the country extremely insulated and tight when it comes to ideology. They clamped down so hard that despite people literally dying due to famine, there were no longer protests.

My impression of China after Tiananmen is also different from yours. Tiananmen was a clear color revolution attempt that wanted to topple the communist government and bring pro-western worshipping forces into power. Chinese government clearly defined those protesting and especially attacking the security forces as rioters. People were executed after June 4th. Many people were put to trial and executed. Some so called student leaders were put into bars and never allowed to get out again.

There was also a clear and permanent ideological tightening. China in the 80s was much looser in terms of what was allowed to discuss among the public compared to today. There were also thinking about doing reforms towards more democracy. But after Tiananmen there was a complete shutdown of all political reforms and that was never loosened ever again. All the so called liberals inside the party were either jailed, put into house arrest, or sidelined out of powerful positions. They were literally wiped out. There also economic tightening for a few years which only changed after Deng's 92 southern tour.


Overall, Totalitarian regimes can survive public unpopularity with extreme ideological rigidity and repression. I think Iran's regime has been too soft and loose so far and only got looser when faced with protest. The whole democracy game with allowing reformers to be elected was a clear failure. They can now only survive by going the opposite direction. Extreme repression and total ideological clampdown. They need to reorient their whole country towards patriotism and shia islamism. Essentially become the Iranian Taliban. Only with this level of crackdown they can survive the extreme economic sanctions from the west.

Will it make the country poorer? Sure, Will many of the so called liberals flee the country? They will try. Overall it will be bad for Iran as a country, but the only way Iran the Islamic Republic can survive.
 

Africablack

Junior Member
Registered Member
Gorbachev and numerous communist regimes collapsed while trying to reform and loosen up too much. The counter example of regimes that did survive are actually regimes who tightened up, massively. I am talking about China after Tiananmen and North Korea.

North Korea is an example of a country that under extreme sanction pressure and regime change pressure that still survived because went extreme with crackdowns and idelogical tightening. It made the country extremely insulated and tight when it comes to ideology. They clamped down so hard that despite people literally dying due to famine, there were no longer protests.

My impression of China after Tiananmen is also different from yours. Tiananmen was a clear color revolution attempt that wanted to topple the communist government and bring pro-western worshipping forces into power. Chinese government clearly defined those protesting and especially attacking the security forces as rioters. People were executed after June 4th. Many people were put to trial and executed. Some so called student leaders were put into bars and never allowed to get out again.

There was also a clear and permanent ideological tightening. China in the 80s was much looser in terms of what was allowed to discuss among the public compared to today. There were also thinking about doing reforms towards more democracy. But after Tiananmen there was a complete shutdown of all political reforms and that was never loosened ever again. All the so called liberals inside the party were either jailed, put into house arrest, or sidelined out of powerful positions. They were literally wiped out. There also economic tightening for a few years which only changed after Deng's 92 southern tour.


Overall, Totalitarian regimes can survive public unpopularity with extreme ideological rigidity and repression. I think Iran's regime has been too soft and loose so far and only got looser when faced with protest. The whole democracy game with allowing reformers to be elected was a clear failure. They can now only survive by going the opposite direction. Extreme repression and total ideological clampdown. They need to reorient their whole country towards patriotism and shia islamism. Essentially become the Iranian Taliban. Only with this level of crackdown they can survive the extreme economic sanctions from the west.

Will it make the country poorer? Sure, Will many of the so called liberals flee the country? They will try. Overall it will be bad for Iran as a country, but the only way Iran the Islamic Republic can survive.
Different societies have spawned different cultural mutations which means what works with East Asians isn't applicable else where. A one party system has survived in China due to culture and luck, but that same system would destroy your typical African country that's far more pluralistic and has a different value system. In addition to that, the Chinese leadership probably understands that tightening up for the sake of tightening up without economic reforms that will increase the living standards of its people would end up a disaster so its a bit of give and take.
 

Randomuser

Captain
Registered Member
Different societies have spawned different cultural mutations which means what works with East Asians isn't applicable else where. A one party system has survived in China due to culture and luck, but that same system would destroy your typical African country that's far more pluralistic and has a different value system. In addition to that, the Chinese leadership probably understands that tightening up for the sake of tightening up without economic reforms that will increase the living standards of its people would end up a disaster so its a bit of give and take.
It is not luck in East Asia. Pretty much every east asian state at this point became developed through 1 party or extreme centralized control. To give credit to only democracy and ignoring the sacrifices they made to give up freedom for centralized control is basically an insult for all those people during those times.

I also want to bring up something that most of us have a misconception about. There seems to be this thing where democracy is somehow modern and 1 party or very centralized rule is outdated. This is actually the opposite of history. Democracy was widely practiced in tribal villages where there were few people and it was easy to get consensus from people. It is when these villages became cities and then nations, that things became more centralized as the scale increased. I find it hilarious France is called the posterchild for democracy when history says otherwise. It was one of the most centralized states in Europe and was literally cited as a reason it had huge advantages over others. Then they killed their King and Napeolon came along where he crowned himself emperor and used force conscription. Even today France is considered to be very centralized compared to other european countries. You probably recall Americans themselves saying we don't live in a democracy, we live in a constitution republic. There's a lot of stuff in American governance that is rather centralized and would break the rules of democracy. Democracy is far more than just showing up to vote every few years.

Its just how things work structurally. In companies maybe they are all equal bros when its a tech startup. However as it expands more, we start seeing layers and hierarchy. Once it becomes listed company, there is pretty much no more equality involved. In military we see the same. Can you tell your CO, no I will not listen to what the uppers say. Me and the boys want to vote on this.
 
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