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4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
The key point is that, at the time Constellation was selected, the future frigate was envisioned as actually replacing some existing DDG-51 destroyers (basically, the Flight Is) as part of a broader rebalancing of the surface combatant inventory, rather than simply supplementing that existing structure with additional hulls. Whatever the merits of that objective, a shift of that nature would inevitably ruffle some feathers -- doubly so if you were proposing to replace them with a reheated LCS. From this perspective, Constellation was the largest step down from the DDG-51 baseline that the Navy was willing and able to stomach in pursuit of numbers. This perspective also helps to explain the otherwise perverse insistence on endless design changes that were so obviously hostile to the project's core objective of bringing a mature design into service on budget and on schedule.
Insanity. If you want a ship to perform destroyer-type jobs and to replace destroyers, why the hell are you trying to do this with a frigate? It's a project that's basically doomed to failure.

Honestly, for all that the Legend-class is going to be a lot less capable, I think that it's just a much healthier concept going forward. Frigates aren't supposed to be able to do everything, so being more limited is fine as long as it's still good at doing frigate-type jobs. Of course, this is still the US Navy we're talking about, so I expect them to screw it up somewhere.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The hull will require a massive redesign. From what I understand, the cutter has a completely different criteria for survivability (it doesn't have to worry about naval mines and Chinese AShMs). And that's just for starters.

The weapons and power requirements are completely different from a cutter as well.

Now the good news is that if memory servers correctly, HII basically made an FFG(X) bid using the Legend class as hull base. So a lot of conceptual development is probably done. The bad news is that this bid was rejected probably for the reasons I outlined. Too many compromises made in terms of survivability and weapon systems.

Though argubaly, a cheap OHP style frigate is just what the Navy needs.

They just made similar changes to the FREMM and ended up with the Constellation debacle.

I would add that there is definitely a role in the US Navy fleet structure for 20 low-cost Frigates in the style of the OHP or Type-054A.
 

Hitomi

Junior Member
Registered Member
I am going to bet that using that hull designed for use for a cutter role is going to come to bite them in the ass again down the road and they need to redesign it to use it for a frigate role and they are going to make something like F-15EX and call it the Oliver Hazard Perry II class or something down the road by restarting the OHP hull production.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
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From the article

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The problem is set to get worse. The shipbuilding work force in the United States includes nearly 150,000 people. By the government’s own admission, contractors need an additional 140,000 just for new submarine orders over the next 10 years. It’s hard to recruit for those labor-intensive jobs when the pay is comparable to working in the service industry. “This is really an issue of wages,” U.S. Navy Secretary John Phelan told a crowd in Fort Wayne, Ind., on Nov. 12.
 

Nevermore

Junior Member
Registered Member
From the article

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The problem is set to get worse. The shipbuilding work force in the United States includes nearly 150,000 people. By the government’s own admission, contractors need an additional 140,000 just for new submarine orders over the next 10 years. It’s hard to recruit for those labor-intensive jobs when the pay is comparable to working in the service industry. “This is really an issue of wages,” U.S. Navy Secretary John Phelan told a crowd in Fort Wayne, Ind., on Nov. 12.
I wonder if such a high per capita GDP is an unhealthy situation for a superpower? Just as excessively high housing prices hinder people's livelihoods.
 

Lethe

Captain
Insanity. If you want a ship to perform destroyer-type jobs and to replace destroyers, why the hell are you trying to do this with a frigate? It's a project that's basically doomed to failure.

Honestly, for all that the Legend-class is going to be a lot less capable, I think that it's just a much healthier concept going forward. Frigates aren't supposed to be able to do everything, so being more limited is fine as long as it's still good at doing frigate-type jobs. Of course, this is still the US Navy we're talking about, so I expect them to screw it up somewhere.

I think that having Constellation as the low-end counterpart to a future ~14k tonne DDG(X) was a workable concept. The argument for such a large "small" combatant, while conceding to some extent on capabilities and cost in service of boosting inventory numbers, would have been along the lines of that which pushed USN in the direction of an all-Burke inventory in the first place: that larger and more capable ships are also more efficient ships and that USN combatants require higher baseline capabilities than those of other navies that are satisfied with more modest combatants. A future DDG(X)/Constellation mix would still have been meaningfully "lighter" than the preceding Tico/Burke mix.

The problem is that the genesis of such a first-rate frigate, with the potential to become the Navy's new baseline combatant for the post-Burke era, sits awkwardly alongside the imperatives of the FFG(X) program as, in large part, a crash response to the failure of LCS. Working "up" from LCS, the clear priorities are schedule, risk, cost, and delivering a certain threshold of multirole capability. But the fleet architecture perspective outlined above isn't so much working "up" from LCS as "down" from Burke. From the latter perspective, the priority is to ensure that the design is satisfactory in all fundamental respects and with sufficient margins for future growth to potentially be developed into the Navy's future baseline combatant. Hence the fiddling with compartmentalisation for passive survivability, strike-length cells, etc. Characteristics that are difficult to change later need to be dialed in from the start. Ditching Constellation and embracing the National Security Cutter suggests that rather different objectives are now being pursued, plausibly in service of an alternative vision for the future inventory, perhaps informed by ongoing developments with DDG-51 and DDG(X).

The truth is that that any requirement for a US Navy frigate, modest or otherwise, really calls for a clean-sheet solution. Neither FREMM-IT or the Legend NSC were or are ideal solutions. That USN and the associated MIC drove itself into a ditch such that a foreign ship and a coast guard ship were amongst the most compelling options available remains the real story here, even if it is an old one -- the still-wagging tail of decades of USN choosing not to invest in a modern general purpose frigate.
 
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AlexYe

Junior Member
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its not that they cant make it, they can but that means various defense companies would have to pay properly for the people, and they along with the various corrupt admirals/generals/consultants incharge+company cant skim for themselves

“This is really an issue of wages,” U.S. Navy Secretary John Phelan told a crowd in Fort Wayne, Ind., on Nov. 12.
Yep see,
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ditching Constellation and embracing the National Security Cutter suggests that rather different objectives are now being pursued, plausibly in service of an alternative vision for the future inventory, perhaps informed by ongoing developments with DDG-51 and DDG(X).

The truth is that that any requirement for a US Navy frigate, modest or otherwise, really calls for a clean-sheet solution. Neither FREMM-IT or the Legend NSC were or are ideal solutions.

Not sure if you had a chance to review the recently released
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, yet.

Within the context of said report, in particular its explicit reaffirmation of the Monroe Doctrine and prioritization of "American preeminence" in the Western Hemisphere, it kind of makes sense for the USN to acquire a fleet of upgunned USCG cutters.

Doubt any reasonable analyst will expect such a frigate to perform meaningfully better than the LCS against peer adversaries, but if we're to be totally fair: it's an almost natural fit for "bullying banana republics."
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think that having Constellation as the low-end counterpart to a future ~14k tonne DDG(X) was a workable concept. The argument for such a large "small" combatant, while conceding to some extent on capabilities and cost in service of boosting inventory numbers, would have been along the lines of that which pushed USN in the direction of an all-Burke inventory in the first place: that larger and more capable ships are also more efficient ships and that USN combatants require higher baseline capabilities than those of other navies that are satisfied with more modest combatants. A future DDG(X)/Constellation mix would still have been meaningfully "lighter" than the preceding Tico/Burke mix.

The problem is that the genesis of such a first-rate frigate, with the potential to become the Navy's new baseline combatant for the post-Burke era, sits awkwardly alongside the imperatives of the FFG(X) program as, in large part, a crash response to the failure of LCS. Working "up" from LCS, the clear priorities are schedule, risk, cost, and delivering a certain threshold of multirole capability. But the fleet architecture perspective outlined above isn't so much working "up" from LCS as "down" from Burke. From the latter perspective, the priority is to ensure that the design is satisfactory in all fundamental respects and with sufficient margins for future growth to potentially be developed into the Navy's future baseline combatant. Hence the fiddling with compartmentalisation for passive survivability, strike-length cells, etc. Characteristics that are difficult to change later need to be dialed in from the start. Ditching Constellation and embracing the National Security Cutter suggests that rather different objectives are now being pursued, plausibly in service of an alternative vision for the future inventory, perhaps informed by ongoing developments with DDG-51 and DDG(X).

The truth is that that any requirement for a US Navy frigate, modest or otherwise, really calls for a clean-sheet solution. Neither FREMM-IT or the Legend NSC were or are ideal solutions. That USN and the associated MIC drove itself into a ditch such that a foreign ship and a coast guard ship were amongst the most compelling options available remains the real story here, even if it is an old one -- the still-wagging tail of decades of USN choosing not to invest in a modern general purpose frigate.

I think the fundamental issue is that a globally pre-eminent US Navy has a requirement for at least 3 classes of surface combatant hullform. But today, they are trying to do everything with just 2 classes, and then failing.

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Looking at it from a bird's eye view, this is what I think the US Navy should be planning for.

1. Based on a fleet of 11 supercarriers, there would be:

Inner Zone (close-in escort)
22 Cruisers or Large Destroyers

Middle Zone (ASW and AAW)
22 Any ship hull larger than a Frigate will work, as long as it is fast enough

Outer Zone (pickets on the threat axis)
22 Smaller Air-Defence Destroyers

These all have to be high capability ships

2. In addition, they would have a fleet of low-cost, low-medium capability Frigates.

Previously this was covered by the 50 OHPs.
 
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