H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
Bombers can carry hypersonic missiles too, and they have the advantage that they're (relatively) highly visible, like a surface fleet, meaning they serve a great signaling value. For example, say the US is issuing nuclear threats like it's 1950 or 1954 again. Sending a couple H-20s to do fly-bys of the continental US sends a very powerful message to Washington.

ICBMs and SSBNs, by their nature, are quite inconspicuous, either deep underground, underwater, or dispersed in the middle of nowhere. They aren't nearly as scary to politicians as a bomber carrying up to 2 dozen nuclear munitions.
In this day and age, when you have internet and can post videos of your ICBMs launching during a test, why would you need billion dollar planes doing flybys?

China doesn't have a bomber doing flybys near US for the last 70 years ever since they got the nukes. Did that reduce their deterrence or their ability to do "I can nuke too" PR one bit?

Nuke Bombers are 60s technology and no longer needed for any reason whatsover. Its better to spend the money on something more useful. H-20 will be useful as a conventional deep penetration bomber.
 

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
Because bombers can be called back while the ICBMs once fired, can’t.
Nuke submarines can also be called back.

Moreover, Maybe add self-destruct feature on your ICBM if you don't want to detonate? Or launch later? ICBM takes minutes to reach targets, Bombers will need hours to get into position.
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
bro you seriously think, H-20 will be unmanned..

Northrop was open to developing the B-21 as an unmanned platform, and it would have been cheaper too, but the USAF rejected the idea because DoD doctrine — at least at that time — called for all bombers carrying nuclear weapons to be piloted by humans.

An unmanned H-20 is not technically unfeasible, the question is whether it'd align with PLAAF doctrine.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
How is an unmanned nuclear bomber different from a nuclear ballistic missile that is also unmanned? As far as I am concerned, the moment the vehicle took off carrying nuclear weapon, the human decision has already been made.

Not if the aircraft (or UCAV, in your example) is meant to perform deterrence/"show-of-force" patrol missions, especially when relations between nuclear powers become extremely tense, and certain message needs to be demonstrated in order to avoid the situation spiralling out of control.

There are neither rules nor regulations dictating bombers/strike aircrafts/UCAVs must only be conducting nuclear strike missions as a prerequisite for carrying nuclear weapons. Ferry flights and repositioning flights are such instances.

Besides, deterrence (by carrying nuclear weapons while flying near the opposing side's territory/homeland, without the explicit intent to attack) itself is the value, not only the capability to conducting nuclear strike.

Also, a bomber/strike aircraft/UCAV is a launch platform. A missile is a delivery medium. The platform can be recalled. The medium cannot be recalled.

An out-of-control drone is no longer a platform - It becomes a medium itself. That's where the risk lies - And that's the risk that should be minimized if not eliminated in order to avoid any unintended and avoidable repercussions.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
In the age of Hypersonic missiles, doing a nuke attack with bombers is extremely foolish and totally pointless in my opinion. I think this whole Nuclear triad idea is obsolete. If you are indeed trying to nuke your enemy, use missiles. If you really need to get close and don't want to use an ICBM, don't use a bomber, use a submarine.

Who says bombers cannot carry and launch ballistic/hypersonic missiles of their own? A H-6N carrying an air-launched DF-17 can easily achieve 3000-4000+ kilometers of strike range, in addition to the bomber's own combat radius (plus any addition from mid-air refueling support).

In this day and age, when you have internet and can post videos of your ICBMs launching during a test, why would you need billion dollar planes doing flybys?

Because ICBMs cannot be recalled once launched, unlike bombers which can be called back when their order is rescinded.

Bombers also offer the choice on whether to carry nuclear weapons AND conduct nuclear strikes, or to carry nuclear weapons AND NOT conduct nuclear strikes. That's where the unique deterrence value offered by the likes of bombers lies - By offering an offramp.

That's the key difference.

China doesn't have a bomber doing flybys near US for the last 70 years ever since they got the nukes. Did that reduce their deterrence or their ability to do "I can nuke too" PR one bit?

Let me refresh your memory:
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Prior to that, the H-6s also conducted joint patrols with the Tu-95s by loitering around South Korea and circling around Japan multiple times since the late-2010s.

So instead of that question of yours, you should be asking: "Why is China suddenly flying H-6Ns on deterrence patrol near Alaska for the first time in July 2024 since China obtained both nuclear weapons and H-6 bombers in the 1960s? Why they didn't do that before?"

Nuke Bombers are 60s technology and no longer needed for any reason whatsover. Its better to spend the money on something more useful. H-20 will be useful as a conventional deep penetration bomber.

Who says that bombers cannot be dual-role (nuclear attack + conventional strike) capable?

Pretty much every single strategic bomber in service today are capable of both nuclear and conventional attacks, since all of them are actually designed with such capabilities in the first place. In fact, whether to equip these bombers with nuclear strike capabilities or not is actually a matter of policy (a.k.a. political choice).

In the age of Hypersonic missiles, doing a nuke attack with bombers is extremely foolish and totally pointless in my opinion. I think this whole Nuclear triad idea is obsolete. If you are indeed trying to nuke your enemy, use missiles. If you really need to get close and don't want to use an ICBM, don't use a bomber, use a submarine.
Nuke submarines can also be called back.

"Foolish and pointless" - Nope, definitely not.

I've already provided the explanation for ICBMs above and in the prior post.

As for the nuclear submarines, they are hard to reach when conducting patrol missions at depth. EM waves travel poorly through water than in the air (high school physics). This is let alone the fact where SSBNs are much slower to get into position for launching their SL-ICBMs than bombers.

That leaves the bombers as the only viable platform for such scenarios, as they can be reached quickly (communications), and are reasonably fast to move (positioning) and travel around (transit).

Moreover, Maybe add self-destruct feature on your ICBM if you don't want to detonate? Or launch later? ICBM takes minutes to reach targets, Bombers will need hours to get into position.

Massed/all-out nuclear attacks occur in the span of minutes, not hours. There's not a lot of time left to doodle around.

In the meantime, adding self-destruct feature to nuclear-armed missiles is the real Fool's Errand. What if those self-destruct features misfire, and the missiles self-destruct instead of heading towards their intended targets? Especially when the enemy is already conducting nuclear strikes on us?

This basically renders the entire nuclear deterrence void and redundant, which is akin to shooting oneself in the foot. That's why the trigger/button lies with the humans, not the machines themselves.
 
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TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Not if the aircraft (or UCAV, in your example) is meant to perform deterrence/"show-of-force" patrol missions, especially when relations between nuclear powers become extremely tense, and certain message needs to be demonstrated in order to avoid the situation spiralling out of control.

There are neither rules nor regulations dictating bombers/strike aircrafts/UCAVs must only be conducting nuclear strike missions as a prerequisite for carrying nuclear weapons. Ferry flights and repositioning flights are such instances.

Besides, deterrence (by carrying nuclear weapons while flying near the opposing side's territory/homeland, without the explicit intent to attack) itself is the value, not only the capability to conducting nuclear strike.

Also, a bomber/strike aircraft/UCAV is a launch platform. A missile is a delivery medium. The platform can be recalled. The medium cannot be recalled.

An out-of-control drone is no longer a platform - It becomes a medium itself. That's where the risk lies - And that's the risk that should be minimized if not eliminated in order to avoid any unintended and avoidable repercussions.
That makes no sense. You can just fly around for posturing. Nobody will know which one carry nuke. Weapons are for war, not theatrics. And if you want theatrics, stealth is pointless, go fly a H-6.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
That makes no sense. You can just fly around for posturing. Nobody will know which one carry it. Weapons are for war, not theatrics. And if you want theatrics, stealth is pointless, go fly a H-6.

Oh, trust me, they definitely will know in case one of them goes the S-70 way in October 2024.

"Weapons are for war, not theatrics" - Tell that to the armed police first.

Also, the "stealth is pointless" argument is rather outdated in the age of widespread LO, VLO and ULO. Sure, a non-stealth bomber brandishing its nuclear payload is good for play such roles.

On the other hand, a nuclear-capable bomber that can choose when and where to "vanish" is actually much more worrying than a bomber that cannot do so. That's another added value in itself.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Discussion continued here to avoid derailing original thread.

Story goes the H-20 program was subject to at least one, if not two major re-designs: one of which allegedly in response to a PLAAF requirement for a supersonic platform after coming to the conclusion that a subsonic platform akin to the B-2 or B-21 would be uncompetitive or otherwise inadequate.

Source of the information/claims?
 

Nilou

New Member
Registered Member
The larger the aircraft the smaller the relative cost of adding people into it. It makes little sense to make an intercontinental bomber unmanned. It also reduces the likelihood of it being shot down by increasing the political cost of doing so. This is why the USA wants to put people onto unmanned boats.
 
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