Should China respect sanctions on Iran?

Martian

Senior Member
My response was to Martian who high lighted a quote by Wen who expressed concern, suggesting that sanctions harmed the innocent of Iran. Because of Chinas track record I could have challenged his concerned and claimed it as bull shit.

India is also opposed to Iran sanctions because it "will hit [the] poor."

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"PM tells Obama that Iran sanctions will hit poor

WASHINGTON
Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:06am IST

(Reuters) - Prime Minister Manhoman Singh said on Tuesday he told U.S. President Barack Obama that New Delhi opposed sanctions against Iran over its nuclear plans and such measures often only affected the poor.

Top News

Speaking to reporters at the end of a two-day nuclear security summit in Washington, Singh said New Delhi opposed Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions but did not believe sanctions would be an effective tool.

"I said to him that as far as we are concerned, we don't think sanctions really, I think, achieve their objective. Very often, the poor in the affected countries suffer more," Singh said when asked about his meeting with Obama on Sunday.

"As far as the ruling establishment, they are not really affected by these sanctions in any meaningful way," he said.

The United States and its allies are pushing for a fourth round of U.N. sanctions against Tehran over its nuclear program, which the West suspects is aimed at producing atomic weapons and Iran says is purely for civilian uses such as generating power.

However permanent U.N. Security Council member China is resisting sanctions against Tehran and other nations such as energy-hungry India also oppose them.

"I also said to him (Obama) that as a signatory to the NPT (Non-Proliferation Treaty), Iran is entitled to all the rights that members who have signed the NPT and are peaceful users of atomic energy, are entitled to," said Singh."

(Reporting by Sue Pleming)"
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
India is also opposed to Iran sanctions because it "will hit [the] poor."

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"PM tells Obama that Iran sanctions will hit poor

WASHINGTON
Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:06am IST

(Reuters) - Prime Minister Manhoman Singh said on Tuesday he told U.S. President Barack Obama that New Delhi opposed sanctions against Iran over its nuclear plans and such measures often only affected the poor.

Top News

Speaking to reporters at the end of a two-day nuclear security summit in Washington, Singh said New Delhi opposed Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions but did not believe sanctions would be an effective tool.

"I said to him that as far as we are concerned, we don't think sanctions really, I think, achieve their objective. Very often, the poor in the affected countries suffer more," Singh said when asked about his meeting with Obama on Sunday.

"As far as the ruling establishment, they are not really affected by these sanctions in any meaningful way," he said.

The United States and its allies are pushing for a fourth round of U.N. sanctions against Tehran over its nuclear program, which the West suspects is aimed at producing atomic weapons and Iran says is purely for civilian uses such as generating power.

However permanent U.N. Security Council member China is resisting sanctions against Tehran and other nations such as energy-hungry India also oppose them.

"I also said to him (Obama) that as a signatory to the NPT (Non-Proliferation Treaty), Iran is entitled to all the rights that members who have signed the NPT and are peaceful users of atomic energy, are entitled to," said Singh."

(Reporting by Sue Pleming)"

XYWDX would call that western bullcrap

Firstly im not concerning myself with Indias views, as its China who has the power of veto.However Wen wasnt talking about the poor, your quote referred to the innocent. Besides if the rulers of Iran had used oil proceeds wisely, instead of spending a fair amount of it on trying to establish a regional dominence, then the the desparely poor that one sees in China and other parts of Asia wouldnt exist.

Secondly After withdrawing from some commercial deals with Iran as a concession towards penalising her, shes hardly in the position to moralise.
 
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Martian

Senior Member
XYWDX would call that western bullcrap

Firstly im not concerning myself with Indias views, as its China who has the power of veto.However Wen wasnt talking about the poor, your quote referred to the innocent. Besides if the rulers of Iran had used oil proceeds wisely, instead of spending a fair amount of it on trying to establish a regional dominence, then the the desparely poor that one sees in China and other parts of Asia wouldnt exist.


If you are not interested in India's views, will you give serious consideration to the German Chancellor's concern of new Iran sanctions being a "tragedy for the Iranian people"?

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"Merkel Warns Against Iran Sanctions, Threatens More
German Company Abandons Iran Project Under Israeli Pressure
by Jason Ditz, January 25, 2010

Speaking today amid the latest international push, German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned that it would be a “tragedy for the Iranian people” to apply additional sanctions to the nation."
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Looking at Pakistan and India's nuclear programs, the thing that Iran had was that the US has been itching for a fight with them for a very long time, and was grasping for any possible reason to do so. The EU follows the US because they are still under the thumb of American power. If anything, the Iranians should have fasttracked their program as much as possible to deter American military actions. Claiming that oil proceeds should only be focused on the poor is nonsense when there is a veritable pitbull ready to pounce.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
If you are not interested in India's views, will you give serious consideration to the German Chancellor's concern of new Iran sanctions being a "tragedy for the Iranian people"?

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"Merkel Warns Against Iran Sanctions, Threatens More
German Company Abandons Iran Project Under Israeli Pressure
by Jason Ditz, January 25, 2010

Speaking today amid the latest international push, German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned that it would be a “tragedy for the Iranian people” to apply additional sanctions to the nation."


Its all part of the Charadewith Merkel she lacks any form of credibility in my book remember how she was most vocal against support for bailing out Greece, only to lead the charge to help in the end. Paying good cop bad cop maybe? At the end of the day, Germany will vote for sanctions .


P.S. Just read the link you provided, Lol DEspite being the prime mover of sanctions against Iran, shes claiming sanctions are a bad move and yet on the other hand shes calling for more unilateral sanctions against Iran. Geez the poor woman doesn't know whether shes Arthur or Martha
 
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Martian

Senior Member
Its all part of the Charadewith Merkel she lacks any form of credibility in my book remember how she was most vocal against support for bailing out Greece, only to lead the charge to help in the end. Paying good cop bad cop maybe? At the end of the day, Germany will vote for sanctions .


P.S. Just read the link you provided, Lol DEspite being the prime mover of sanctions against Iran, shes claiming sanctions are a bad move and yet on the other hand shes calling for more unilateral sanctions against Iran. Geez the poor woman doesn't know whether shes Arthur or Martha

Let's try this again. This time we'll bring in another member of the U.N. Security Council with a permanent veto (e.g. see newslink below). The current list is China, India, Germany, and now Russia.

I ask you again, should there be extreme restraint in imposing further sanctions on Iran because of the severe effects on the poor civilian population? In other words, do you have any empathy for suffering human beings?

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"Apr 14, 2010 ... Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said potential sanctions should be aimed at nonproliferation and should not hurt ordinary people. ... Delhi opposed fresh sanctions and that such measures often only affected the poor. ..."
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Looking at Pakistan and India's nuclear programs, the thing that Iran had was that the US has been itching for a fight with them for a very long time, and was grasping for any possible reason to do so. The EU follows the US because they are still under the thumb of American power. If anything, the Iranians should have fasttracked their program as much as possible to deter American military actions. Claiming that oil proceeds should only be focused on the poor is nonsense when there is a veritable pitbull ready to pounce.

By the same taken we can apply a similar logic vis a vie China Taiwan. However getting back to Iran I never said oil proceeds should only be used for the poor, but a fair portion of it being misdirected into other activities.

If Adjad was even to redirect his subsidies just to help the poor it would go along way in the light of any increased sanctions. But then we know that Ajads got the support of the poorer voters, its the rich and middle class that can cause problems is what hes more worried about.

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Will Iran’s poor lose from subsidy reform?
Posted in General by Djavad on March 15, 2010
Barely three months have passed since the controversial bill that authorizes the government to target its massive subsidy program became law, and it is already stalling. The government has asked the parliament to lift the $20 billion ceiling on spending from the revenues that it hopes to raise from selling energy at higher prices and lowering the subsidy for a few other items. In the meantime, the stalling has allowed the opponents of the targeting bill to revive their calls for scrapping the bill and renew their warnings that the nation will pay a heavy price for removing these subsides (see, for example, here and here, both in Persian). Most likely this will not be the last setback the bill will suffer in its precarious journey toward implementation. But at least the journey to rationalize Iran’s energy prices has started. The warnings of dire consequences from the targeting bill are usually about soaring inflation and rising poverty. Inflation is forecast to rise to intolerable levels, 30-50 percent by some accounts, and the the poor are expected to lose big in the bargain. The warning about inflation is well taken but the claim of rising poverty is very debatable.
There is no denying that raising energy prices will lead to price increases in general, despite mild denials by the bill’s supporters. How much will inflation increase, depends on how gradually are subsides removed and whether or not Iran’s Central Bank decides to accommodate or fight the general price increases. Fighting them too vehemently by tightening credit would impose a heavy cost on the already weak economy, plunging it into deeper recession, so my hope is for some accommodation (read more inflation).
The claim that the reform would hurt the poor is a more serious criticism since reducing inequality is the main stated goal of the reform. Unlike the claim about inflation, this one can be checked by doing some easy number crunching, which is what I will do. The short lesson from the number crunching is that energy subsidies (especially for gasoline) are regressive in the sense that the poor receive a much lower share of them than the rich, so the only way the poor would lose from removing them would be if the government botched its repayment scheme, something which I am more inclined to believe now than I was the last time I wrote a post on this subject (more about this below).
For the long answer, which I hope is worth the pain, let us look at how Iranian families spend their income on a few key subsidized items. The table below shows the amount of annual expenditures and direct subsidies that individuals received in 2007 (1386) calculated for the ten deciles of per capita net expenditures. (There areindirect subsidies that accrue from consuming energy intensive goods, which I ignore here.) I will further simplify my calculations by assuming that the market price or full cost of each item is 5 times its actual (2007) subsidized price. So the amount of subsidy per unit equals 4 times the price. For example, for gasoline this formula assumes a cost-based pump price of about 6000 rials per liter (five time my estimate of the average price of 1200 rials per liter in 2007 and close to its world price). These assumptions are ball park numbers but do not affect the estimates of the distribution of the subsidy for individual items. My estimates probably understate the true amount of subsidy because my numbers add up to only 166 trillion rials, which is about one-third of what I estimate the total subsidy for all goods (and all consumers–government and corporate) to be (about $50 billion). I will only consider the most important items affected by the targeting law.
Here is what I find for (a) the amount of subsidy per person and (b) how the subsidy for each item is distributed by decile of expenditures.


Source: Author’s calculations from the data files of the 2007 Household Expenditures and Income Survey, Statistical Center of Iran.
According to this table, in 2007 the average person in the lowest (poorest) decile spent 3.2 million rials (roughly $1000 in PPP dollars) per year (in all these conversions I use the World Bank PPP rate for 2007 of 3355 rials per USD), compared to 58.5 million rials (roughly $18,300) by the average person in the highest decile. Each poor person received a bread subsidy of about $160 per year, which is about the same as a person in any other decile. However, in the case of gasoline $540 per year went to the persons in highest decile, compared to $44 in the lowest decile. Nearly half the gasoline subsidy went to the richest 20 percent. Electricity and natural gas were also unequally distributed, with more than one third going to the top one-fifth and less than 10 percent to the bottom fifth.
The average poor person (bottom decile) received a total of 1.2 million rials in subsidy per year ($360), compared to 4.7 million rials ($1,410) per person in the riches decile. Obviously, if all these subsidies are removed and there is no compensation, while the rich will lose more in absolute terms, the poor would suffer more. This is because the loss in direct subsidies for the person in top decile is only 8 percent of his or her expenditures, whereas for someone in the lowest decile it is 37 percent. Even though in absolute terms the rich take in more of the subsidy than the poor, in the conventional sense the subsidy program is not regressive. This is because as a proportion of expenditures the subsidy is much larger for the poor than the rich (see graph below). So, viewed as a negative income tax, the subsidy program is actually progressive.

Note: Percent of subsidies in expenditures by deciles of net expenditures
There is general agreement that the government should not subsidize the rich, especially when it involves waste and environmental damage. If, as the law envisages, half the total subsidy were distributed equally among, say, the lower 50% of the population, each of them would receive about 2.4 million rials or (PPP) $710 per year, which is about twice what they are getting now in the form of subsidies for the four items I have listed here.
So, ignoring the indirect effects, the subsidy reform comes down to the following bargain for the poor: Give up $360 in certain benefits for the promise of $710 in the future. In these uncertain times they might well prefer the bird-in-hand (in Persian we say seeliye naghd beh az halvayeh nesyeh — literally, a slap in the face now beats sweet halva on promise). Should they take or reject this bargain?
The answer depends on one’s assessment of the government’s sincerity and competence in administering the cash-back program, on which there is wide disagreement. Doubt whether the government’s team is up to the task isincreasing. The government spent a lot of money in administering a national income and wealth census which is the basis for identifying the target families. The recent backtracking on its first version of the targeting system has worsened national anxiety over the accuracy and the fairness of any classification based on government surveys. Initially, the population was divided into three income and wealth “branches” (khousheh in Persian), but this was soon abandoned as it became the butt of jokes in the country and stories circulated about who knew so-and-so rich family who were placed in branch one (the needy) and some poor folk in branch three. After spending millions of dollars in designing this system of classification, and trading some 34 million SMS messages with the citizens who wanted to know which branch they were in, not to mention putting the reputation of the Statistical Center of Iran as a neutral collector of household survey information at great risk, a smiling President Ahmadinejad on national television asked the Iranian people to forget the “branches”

P.s>Unfortunately the graphs did not show so you will have to go to the link
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Let's try this again. This time we'll bring in another member of the U.N. Security Council with a permanent veto (e.g. see newslink below). The current list is China, India, Germany, and now Russia.

Seeing Russia has had as much to do with the undermining of past sanctions as China for her own purposes, I give her as much credibilty for concern of the poor as China.

I ask you again, should there be extreme restraint in imposing further sanctions on Iran because of the severe effects on the poor civilian population? In other words, do you have any empathy for suffering human beings?
Refer to my above reply to Monty165 (post 307) regarding Ajad's subsidies for the poor.
 

Martian

Senior Member
Seeing Russia has had as much to do with the undermining of past sanctions as China for her own purposes, I give her as much credibilty for concern of the poor as China.

Let's look at this issue from a different view. House Foreign Affairs Committee member Representative Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), Iranian Americans (e.g. usually strongly pro-American and anti-Iranian government), Iranian Nobel laureate (e.g. who won their prized distinction for anti-Iranian government views), and the famous American think-tank RAND corporation all say that additional Iran sanctions will hurt the poor people in Iran.

Are they right?

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"Why increased U.S. sanctions on Iran don’t work
By Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.) - 10/22/09 06:23 PM ET

Fifteen years of sanctions on Iran have taught us one important lesson: They have not produced the intended results. More sanctions are unlikely to produce results now. In fact, additional sanctions, while satisfying some, are more likely to produce results that we do not intend. If we impose increased sanctions, we will likely strengthen President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s hand and risk snuffing out the emerging democracy movement in Iran.

No doubt about it: The Iranian government armed with nuclear weapons is objectionable. And the U.S. must stand firmly on key issues like human rights.
...
If Congress insists on further sanctions on Iran, it could derail President Obama’s diplomatic efforts at this delicate time. Iranian Americans, like Trita Parsi of the National Iranian American Council, agree: “The progress we have seen is partly due to Obama’s ability to unite the Security Council. But if Congress moves forward with sanctions that target our allies, the unity will collapse. Where Obama has been a uniter, Congress will become a divider.”
...
Iranian leaders like Nobel Laureate Shirin Ebadi and Akbar Ganji tell us that sanctions will only hurt the people of Iran. Opposition candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi has denounced sanctions, saying that anyone who supports his “Green” movement should also oppose additional sanctions. According to Mousavi, “Sanctions would not actually act against the government — rather, they would only inflict statesmen. We are opposed to any types of sanctions against our nation. This is what living the Green Path means.”

Researchers agree that increased sanctions on Iran will not serve U.S. interests. A recent report by the RAND Corporation documented a growing corollary between the power of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard, a branch of the military associated with much of Iran’s corruption — and sanctions. With inflation in Iran at over 20 percent and with manufacturing in serious decline, sanctions will only lead to higher prices and greater black-market trade, which is already controlled by the Revolutionary Guard.

Michael Axworthy, a lecturer in Middle Eastern and Iranian history at the University of Exeter in England, thinks that increased U.S. sanctions on Iran are exactly what the Revolutionary Guard wants. He said, “(The Revolutionary Guard) profit by a situation in which there are sanctions and shortages and in which the people can’t get what they want, and they are able to control a fairly small stream of what the people want at an inflated price. I don’t think the Revolutionary Guard is very likely to put pressure on the Iranian regime to open politically in order to open economically.”
...
Increased sanctions have not worked in Iran. When they do “work,” they likely do so at the expense of the poorest and most vulnerable — as they did in Iraq. Researcher Richard Garfield estimated “a minimum of 100,000 and a more likely estimate of 227,000 excess deaths among young Iraqi children from August 1991 through March 1998” from all causes including sanctions.

Iran’s political leaders use polarizing rhetoric to demonize the United States and allies. But they are also shrewd. Increased sanctions at this time, while actually harming their own people, rally and strengthen the nation’s resolve to further its nuclear ambitions in the name of self defense. If we fall prey to their trap, we run the risk of losing both a nuclear-free, and a democratic, Iran.

The change we seek in Iran can only be brought about through a disciplined dialogue and determined diplomacy, as President Obama’s talks are showing.

Ellison serves on the House Foreign Affairs Committee."
 
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ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
Martian you can really keep trying, but have you ever seen anyone convince a neocon successfully that they're wrong? Or that their warmongering ways can be simply changed even when all the evidence were shown? They just don't give up until they force their ways down other people's throats and introduce American democracy to them. To them, the rest of the world is always wrong if the world disagree with US. You can try and keep throwing evidence, but you'll only receive rejections and dismissals. They never really cared about the others as long as they get their way.


I just can't believe how Bladerunner can totally disregard the living of the millions of Iranian civilians. Normal economic sanctions only hurt the civilian population the most, and I can't believe how he says millions of Iranians deserve this coming to them. That totally sent a shiver down my spine.
 
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