China's Space Program Thread II

by78

General
Some images from the launch of ChinaSat-3B, a telecommunications satellite for voice and video transmission services. The launch was carried out by a Long March 7A and marked the 577th flight of the Long March series.

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More high-resolution images from the launch of ChinaSat-3B.

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by78

General
Tianwen-3 Mars sample return mission spacecraft. Three components: service module, orbiter, lander, and ascender, and sample returner. The orbiter carries various instruments for remote sensing.

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China has opened the application process for submitting research proposals utilizing scientific instruments to be carried by Tianwen-3 Mars sample return mission. Images below show part of the guideline document issued for the application process, which lists the various instruments of Tianwen-3.

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by78

General
An update from Nayuta Space, which is developing a reusable launch vehicle called Space Chaser I. The company is also getting into chopstick recovery game for the 1st stage.

Space Chaser I a two-stage launch vehicle with a diameter of 3.80m, a length of 70m, a fairing diameter of 5.20m, and a take-off mass of 480 tons. The 1st stage is powered by nine Canglong-1 engines, and the upper stage is powered by a single Canglong-1 variant. With the planned chopstick recovery, the payload capacity can be increased by 2 to 4 tons.

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According to this
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, Nayuta is working on a different reusable launch vehicle called Chaser-R. It is to use pneumatic recovery + chopstick landing. Not sure how the system works, but it has apparently passed expert review.

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tphuang

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Compared to the Jai Hind posters take every and any criticism of China's space program and go "This is fake news sar, china is doing fine, stupid western propaganda is making China look bad" You want to turn this forum into a circlejerk echo chamber? I'm only getting pushback because I'm pretty much the one poster here actually critical of the many flaws of China's space program and not blindly praising it.
didn't we tell you never to post in this thread again?
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
According to this
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, Nayuta is working on a different reusable launch vehicle called Chaser-R. It is to use pneumatic recovery + chopstick landing. Not sure how the system works, but it has apparently passed expert review.

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The ppt says 玄鸟-R. The following link shows 玄鸟-1 which looks the same and also use words "气动回收". So I believe it describes the same recovery method.
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This video
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, at 00:44 has a time line of launch procedure of 玄鸟-1.

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It skips the deceleration burn at high altitude that Falcon 9 does. It's only burn happens in step 5 when the rocket is 500m above earth surface. It uses annealing stainless steel for structure instead of aluminium in Falcon 9. I think the idea is that annealing stainless steel is strong enough to withstand the heat generated during the falling, so they skips the burn, reducing the payload penalty of recovery. If succeeded it would be a better solution for VTVL 1st stage recovery.

BTW, I would suggest to translate "气动回收" to "aerodynamic recovery" instead of "pneumatic".
 

Engineer

Major
Oh boy the cope is strong. The reality is that China is indeed falling behind hard, they have less internet satellite coverage than Oneweb for heaven's sake. And unlike every other field that China is catching up in, once SpaceX has filled LEO with hundreds of thousands of sats, it's not gonna to easy to catch up in, since it's not like LEO has infinite amount of space for satellites. They're gonna to be joustling for space in LEO before long, and China has a shitty hand for negotiations when they have 1/100th of the launch capacity.

Trying to sugar coat and white washing the problem is how China got into this fucking mess in the first place. If China had actually listened to the critics and actually modernized her rocket fleet back in the 90s, they wouldn't be in this position today. Basically everyone was screaming at China since her rocket program was founded to stop dropping toxic spent rockets stages onto villages, but no, China stronk, China doesn't need listen to the evil western critics, they're just jealous that the LM-2 has a cool orange cloud that will kill you within seconds and China is delivering it to chinese villages for free. No, continue with hypergolic rocket program and don't build coastal launch sites or modern cryogenic rockets until the mid-2010s, fuck those stupid westerners telling us what to do. And look at how it worked out?

Clean cryogenic fuels are not a new technology, the V2 rocket was using Ethanol and liquid oxygen in the 1940s and the first orbital class rocket, the rocket that put Sputnik into space, used kerosene and liquid oxygen. Same for coastal launch sites, not a new concept. It's only China, in her infinite wisdom, that held off developing this technologies until the mid 2010s, for stupid reasons. Despite everyone giving China shit over their toxic rockets being launched inland over populated areas. Which is the main reason why China is struggling to develop reusable rockets today. And other basic infrastructure like launch sites. How could they develop reusable rockets within a reasonable amount of time? They have only a decade experience with cryogenic fueled rockets, compared to America's decades.

If any of you braindead worshiping fanboys were in the 90s, you probably would be cheering China's decision to not listen to all those pesky westerners that constantly criticized China for dropping hypergolic rockets onto villages and encouraged China's decision to hold off modernizing their rockets and launch infrastructure for decades more. In fact, in this very thread, I have had people actually say that China clinging exclusively onto hypergolic rockets for so long was a good thing because they were cheaper, as if they didn't hamper development into the very important field of modern rocketry.

Reminds me of the Jai Hind Indians. So utterly nationalistic and delusional that they cannot accept criticism and think that their country can do no wrong. Well, the reality is that rocket development in China has been a list of stupid mistake after stupid mistake for the last 30 years, ignoring basic development of core technologies and infrastructure despite lots of people telling them that they were dumb until SpaceX finally woke them up with a kick the balls. Stop trying to paint valid criticism as "evil fake new western propaganda"

No country can develop if they ignore all their problems. And if China had actually listened to international criticism on their practice of dropping spent toxic rocket stages inland and acted on their entirely reasonable advice to stop doing it, they would have retired their hypergolic rockets and build modern coastal launch sites 20-30 years ago, and the country would have been much better for it.
Oh boy, the cope is strong. The attempt at switching to cryogenic fuel is the primary reason China is "falling behind." If cryogenic rockets are so superior, why isn’t China’s cryogenic rocket program automatically successful? Checkmate. Instead of confronting this glaring contradiction, cryogenic fanboy scribbled a page of drivel, blaming failures of Chinese cryogenic rockets on… the existence of hypergolic rockets.

Succumbing to the cryogenic rocket hype was how China got itself into the current mess. The Wenchang launch site should have been built with hypergolic support from the start. That way, while cryogenic rockets matured over time, hypergolic rockets could launch without discarded stages on to villages. This should have been an obvious hedge. Yet, braindead cryogenic fanboys obsess over total abandonment of hypergolic fuel in favor of cryogenic systems, disregarding proper engineering methodologies.

Everyone (read: just the West) screams at China to halt its hypogolic rocket program—not out of concern for sustainability but sheer obstructionism. As soon as China’s cryogenic rocket development got into high gear, the U.S. imposed an embargo on cryogenic technologies. This move tells us hypergolic rockets were never the issue. If that wasn’t clear enough, recall the West’s reaction to successful Long March-5 launches: condemning the rocket as "too big" and its debris as "too risky," recycling the same tired "rockets falling on people" propaganda.

Meanwhile, every accusation is a confession. While loudly criticizing China’s space debris, the West quietly dumped a massive battery pack from the ISS that struck a home five years later. SpaceX’s Starship debris rains over the Caribbean routinely, yet no one bats an eye.

It’s also interesting how the concept of "Jai Hind" got dragged into this. Like Indians fixated on chasing paper performance metrics for imported technologies, cryogenic fanboy mirrors this blind obsession. The drivel merely assumes cryogenic rockets are "advanced"—but advanced according to whom?! Clearly, fanboy lacks critical thinking skills and took Western claims at face value, never asking whether cryogenic rockets are actually suitable for China. All that matters for fanboy is cryogenic rockets stronk! Jai Cryogenic!

You’re right about one thing though: China has made many mistakes over the past decades. First, falling for Western psy-ops promoting cryogenic rockets. Second, failing to hedge at Wenchang launch site. Third, chasing reusable rockets. Basically, China competes against Western strengths with China’s weaknesses. China’s true power lies in mass production, and it should have leaned into that advantage and mass-produce hypergolic rockets like sausages.
 

ENTED64

New Member
Registered Member
Third, chasing reusable rockets. Basically, China competes against Western strengths with China’s weaknesses. China’s true power lies in mass production, and it should have leaned into that advantage and mass-produce hypergolic rockets like sausages.
I think China probably had to start on reusable rockets at some point. You can make a case that too much emphasis was placed on it and some companies should have been working on mass producing single use rockets. But I think saying China should have just ignored reusable rockets entirely seems a bit over the top.

Either way rockets take years to get to the point where they can launch so at this point we're more or less stuck with existing pipelines for next few years at least. So for better or for worse China is committed to trying to get reusable rockets which in the long run is probably the right idea. It's just going to be slow and painful for a few years until those reusable rockets can get to a high tempo.
 

Engineer

Major
Reusability is a very niche feature, and needs too many right conditions to justify the complexity. First, there needs to be enough launch volume which just doesn't exist. Second, the rocket needs to have a minimum size, which is above what most customers require. Third, refurbishment has to be significantly less than a new build. Forth, geography plays a role, which puts the US in an advantageous position but not so for China.

I wouldn't even call reusability a success for SpaceX. SpaceX basically pays itself for the launches through Starlink. It is very clever from a business point of view, but reusability by itself isn't game changing because SpaceX could never have survived relying solely on reusability. For China, reusability is a fool's errand.
 
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