The Kashmir conflict 2025.

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
"New Delhi shocked by the scale of Pakistan’s response & then got serious for a cease-fire"
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This lines up perfectly with earlier report here:

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To all my naive friends who are being confused by the Fake News Central, please, calm down, drink water. :) How many times will you let yourself be fooled?
 

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
(1)i frankly think this is exactly what they tried to do. And it's telling, that among aircraft most likely to be lost, it's Rafales(which probably were in the front of the formation, as the most survivable assets doing closer range AASM strikes), Mirage(also AASM bomber), and... likely mig-29(?), which probably was in there to cover the retreat of damaged force or something like that(too early for rampages to be delivered, and no signs of kh-35s; i.e. probably it was that very CAP reinforcement you mention).
The point is: there were over 120 fighters in the engagement area. It is hard to believe that only one PL-15 was fired. Normally in conditions like these, a J-10C would fire two PL-15s to “guarantee” the kill. The J-10 may have fired its PL-15s as soon as the Rafale signaled on the radar and then immediately went on the defensive, increasing its chances of evasion. While the Rafale (with a smaller firing range) needed to get closer to fire its MICA – while the Rafale entered the firing zone, the PL-15 was already heading towards it (pitbull) and the J-10 was already on the defensive. By the time the Rafale’s radar warned that a PL-15 was coming towards it, it might have been too late to escape.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
The point is: there were over 120 fighters in the engagement area. It is hard to believe that only one PL-15 was fired. Normally in conditions like these, a J-10C would fire two PL-15s to “guarantee” the kill. The J-10 may have fired its PL-15s as soon as the Rafale signaled on the radar and then immediately went on the defensive, increasing its chances of evasion. While the Rafale (with a smaller firing range) needed to get closer to fire its MICA – while the Rafale entered the firing zone, the PL-15 was already heading towards it (pitbull) and the J-10 was already on the defensive. By the time the Rafale’s radar warned that a PL-15 was coming towards it, it might have been too late to escape.
Micas weren't in range early in the engagement, and i doubt Pakistani fighters pushed into their envelope just to make things fair (furthermore, RVV-SDs, Astras and Derby-ERs are here). So probably they didn't have chances to be used at all.

Furthermore, i assume all Indian a/c were under strict prohibition to cross(or risk crossing) LOC under any circumstances, to avoid capture. That's where the problem comes - Rafales can use meteors, but we for now don't have signs of it. Maybe rafales which delivered strike close to LOC(AASM ones)weren't even carrying them. Maybe no rafales carried meteors at all, which will of course bring up the question, why.

My current assumption - rafales(and maybe mirages) were in the front, but not so much as vanguard fighters, but more like tried to do Ukraine style insertions for targets close to LOC with shorter-range ammunition (AASM); targets around LOC are numerous, and they relied on higher survivability factor to make it work. They weren't thus in a good position to do Air combat maneuvers. Their role for the air battle was more of information nodes for the archers remaining behind and up high.
Su-30MKIs(archers) - mostly top cover at a certain stand off, with some(remember only 2 sq can carry it!) doing Brahmos launches from the rear w/o any significant exposure to risk.
Mig-29UPGs - reinforcement and/or escort(note how close that K-36DM to the LOC), which basically went hard in to save the force and prevent the pursuit, after things turned bad.

If my assumption is right - the problem was still that the most exposed Indian aircraft(Rafales over Kashmir) didn't carry longest range weapon, and thus were picked off from relative safety; CAP couldn't protect them from behind the way VKS does (by sending FU R-37Ms to whomever tries to engage bombers).
 
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mack8

Junior Member
All this is negligence. One cannot expect India not to have BVR missiles, because they do. After the 2019 air conflict, where India had MICA and R-77 (80 km) and Pakistan had AIM-120C5 (105 km), India took 3 measures:
1) demanded accelerated delivery of the 250 Meteors that it had purchased in the Rafale package, in July 2020, the Rafale + Meteor duo became operational in India; 2) purchased 400 R-77-1 (RVV-SD), a newer version of the Russian R-77 with a range of 110 km;
3) Accelerated the national BVRs, Astra Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3. Put the Astra Mk1 (110 km) into operation in the same year in 2019.
Very interesting that India might have ordered the RVV-SD, is there a source confirming that? Did they got the RVV-MD as well? Are these only for the Su-30MKIs or the MiG-29K and MiG-29UPG were updated (probably just software) to use them as well?
 

totenchan

Junior Member
Registered Member
India doesn't have escalation dominance, India has less escalation resistance due to both their cultural affinity for stupid decisions and their lack of external constraints. If things do escalate Pakistan has an inifinte magazine depth, India does not, Pakistan has free upgrade path to far more advanced weapons, India does not, but most importantly, India has FAR, FAR more to lose than Pakistan.
You are acting like Pakistan is entitled to Chinese munitions and support. "Infinite magazine depth"? Provided at the expense of who? A "free" upgrade path? China does not owe Pakistan anything for "free". Even if Pakistan believed they might have full access to the entire Chinese weapons industry, it would be very stupid to act as if they did.
If we escalate to naval engagements, India can lose carriers, if we start bombing ports, Indian can lose significant trade, if we start bombing infrastructure, India has a lot of FDI to lose,
And if you do all these things, what might India, with its far greater stockpiles of munitions and platforms do to you?
and if we start dragging foreign power into it, India can be crippled by Chinese sanctions, while India got no one to help them against Pakistan.
There's that sense of entitlement again. China historically has used sanctions extremely cautiously and applied them surgically. Never as a blunt instrument designed to "cripple" another state. Why would it sanction all of India on the behalf of an unreliable partner that can barely keep its economy together, or keep Chinese workers safe?
 

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
Very interesting that India might have ordered the RVV-SD, is there a source confirming that? Did they got the RVV-MD as well? Are these only for the Su-30MKIs or the MiG-29K and MiG-29UPG were updated (probably just software) to use them as well?
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On 13 June 2019, it was reported that the Indian Air Force had ordered missiles worth $700 million from Russia, the order comprising new generation short range RVV-MD and mid-range RVV-SD. The RVV-MD is export version of Vympel’s R-74, the missile having an improved range of 40 km and a more effective two-band IR seeker while the RVV-SD missile has an edge over older RVV-AE (R-77) because of its longer range and better guidance system.
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yup, it's all about the Rafale getting shot down by the J-10C. You'd think it was just an air engagement.

As more details come out about the kill chain, there will be a lot of breast beating no just in India.

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