The Kashmir conflict 2025.

[tamsen_ikard]

Despite getting hit repeatedly, Pakistan hasn't performed its retaliatory strike. I feel it's a sign of Pakistan showing too much timidity and defensiveness in the face such overwhelming Indian aggression.

Just cause India launched air launched missiles doesn't mean Pakistan must also launch air launched missiles which is one of the weak spots for Pakistan. They probably don't have very long range air launched cruise missiles.

They can probably go asymmetric and use ground launched cruise missiles. Although this might lead to similar Indian attacks, they way India keeps escalating, this might be inevitable.

 

[Randomuser]

Not trying to be a killjoy, but someone needs to say this out loud.

The Chinese MIC, blessed by PAF competence and IAF misadventurism, has a lot to be proud about right now.

However, a single air battle doesn't make the J-10CE infallible or the Dassault Rafale unredeemable. There are going to be many, many sorties to come.

Sooner or later, might be the day after tomorrow or a decade from now, the PAF is going to lose a J-10 or two. Such is the nature and rhythm of warfare.

So let's not gloat too hard!

What matters isn't who starts the war but who ends it on their terms.

We will see if the Chinese weaponry lives up to the hype.

I'm a bit concerned. India has kinda cornered itself here. Like there's no way out for them outside a significant victory. They boasted so much and now they have to live up to those expectations. Otherwise they will never live this down. There's no way they can end this fight right now with such an embarrassing first day.

 

[manqiangrexue]

This is in 2019 as reported by a JF-17 pilot*:

“One mission took place in the days following the Indian Air Force’s attempted strikes in Pakistan border region- at five in the night I took off in rain and low cloud with TS in the vicinity. Clouds were from 4,000 till 33,000 feet. Got out of clouds and controller reported two Su-30s ‘across the fence’. I targeted them at ranges beyond 50-60 NM but didn’t get authorisation to engage from controller, continued to grind above 32,000 flowing hot and cold 20-30NM from fence targeting the Su-30s. The IAF scrambled a total of six more Su-30s and finally I had eight Su-30s in front. Would turn hot and target each one in sequence from north to south (just spike them seeing whether they get lured in or not). After hitting texaco (air refuelling) returned to based amid rain and wet runway.. the first thing ground crew did was count the missiles.. gave a disappointed look once all were intact. the same profile continued for a couple of month but that first mission was an unbelievable experience.”


*

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Yeah, pilots definitely need permission to break the peace and start shooting but once the shooting has started, it's typically fire whenever you get a lock. There's no time to ask around; enemy can use countermeasures to break your lock or put you in his lock while you're calling dispatch.

Wait, this crazy cowboy wanted to wrangle 8 MKI by himself with his Thunder? He always said, "I" instead of "we," and he was talking about taking the Flankers out one-by-one "in sequence," so I'm not getting any feeling that he had wingmen with him. Sounded like lone patrol. One thing's for sure; if that shit actually worked and he took down 8 of them instead of getting himself killed, he could retire right there and not bother with clothes anymore for the rest of his life. Just walk around naked all day in his living room getting laid by random women coming through the door with food offerings.

 

[Black Wolf]

I think we all need to take a step back and appreciate the complexity of modern air war and the importance of awcks, I think paf have an edge in this battle mainly due to their Chinese awcks and Chinese fighters and Chinese missiles that allowed them to have a integration effect.

Correction....

Pakistan is currently not operating any Chinese AEW&C systems. Instead, it relies on 10 to 12 Saab Erieye aircraft. All four ZDK-03s are grounded, with rumors suggesting they may have been sent back to China for upgrades to KJ-500 or KJ-700 standards.

 

[Zahid]

I don't think it's true. Just because they say they could have shot another 10, we are to believe them? They claimed to have downed 3 Rafales and we don't have evidence past one. I think the announcer got overly excited and started BSing; maybe he meant he thinks they could have killed 10 more if they were more aggressively hunting them, but that's in retrospect because they weren't more aggressive at the time to protect themselves. These are independent pilots out there fighting and I highly doubt any one of them had any Indian jets locked on, then checked with central command to see how many where downed, and decided that's too many. Everyone was out for blood and glory!

Yes. Believe us. We don't make up BS just like that.

The instructions two days ago were clear & we know because is now public knowledge: pilots were to shoot the planes that launched munitions. This was stated as restraint. I think this restraint comes back to bite Pakistan. It did in 2019 because the skirmish had no effect on outcome of Indian elections & then the highly controversial abrogation of Article 370 to end special status of Indian-Occupied Kashmir by Modi's govt. This shows that restraint was a mistake & it actually helped Modi in his re-election & his later decisions. If war be diplomacy by other means then Pakistan failed in pushing its objectives.

This may seem as off topic, but it ties directly with the Kashmir conflict today.

 

[subotai1]

It is a little known fact that the original J-10 was designed with Dassault software. Kinda awkward looking back now.

However, Dassault Systemes and Dassault Aviation are actually separate companies with limited interaction. Although they are both under Dassault Group.

 

[Observer1]

Despite getting hit repeatedly, Pakistan hasn't performed its retaliatory strike. I feel it's a sign of Pakistan showing too much timidity and defensiveness in the face such overwhelming Indian aggression.

Just cause India launched air launched missiles doesn't mean Pakistan must also launch air launched missiles which is one of the weak spots for Pakistan. They probably don't have very long range air launched cruise missiles.

They can probably go asymmetric and use ground launched cruise missiles. Although this might lead to similar Indian attacks, they way India keeps escalating, this might be inevitable.

What would you classify as "very long range" ALCM in the India-Pakistan dynamic?

Because Pakistan does possess a fairly new domestic design they produced a few years ago, which is even offered for export.

600KM design with 'stealth' features claimed.

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This is apart from other air launched systems it has from China too like the CM-400AKG, or the H4 stand-off glide bombs.

 

[GiantPanda]

Yeah, pilots definitely need permission to break the peace and start shooting but once the shooting has started, it's typically fire whenever you get a lock. There's no time to ask around; enemy can use countermeasures to break your lock or put you in his lock while you're calling dispatch.

Wait, this crazy cowboy wanted to wrangle 8 MKI by himself with his Thunder? He always said, "I" instead of "we," and he was talking about taking the Flankers out one-by-one "in sequence," so I'm not getting any feeling that he had wingmen with him. Sounded like lone patrol.

The operations that took down the Rafales were done behind the border. There was no frenzied dogfight.

The 6-0 blanking as claimed (and we have definite crash sites of at least four) seems to me a battlefield where one side completely dominates the other. And this isn't Israel pounding someone in the Middle East with Western tech versus Soviet, the IAF on paper has a supposedly overwhelming fleet of Western aircraft in their Rafales.

The only way to get that kind of kill-ratio in this case is for an ambush -- meaning one side had an overwhelming advantage in terms of initiative whether it is the geography, EW, kill-chain or radar detection.

I think PAF pilots actually did have time to get the get ahead from their controllers.

 

[Observer1]

I don't think it's true. Just because they say they could have shot another 10, we are to believe them? They claimed to have downed 3 Rafales and we don't have evidence past one. I think the announcer got overly excited and started BSing; maybe he meant he thinks they could have killed 10 more if they were more aggressively hunting them, but that's in retrospect because they weren't more aggressive at the time to protect themselves. These are independent pilots out there fighting and I highly doubt any one of them had any Indian jets locked on, then checked with central command to see how many where downed, and decided that's too many. Everyone was out for blood and glory!

This is the most accurate thread I've seen with evidence included.

Probable kills are:

- 1x Rafale
- 1x Mirage-2000 (potentially misidentified as a Rafale too)
- 1x Su-30MKI
- 1x MiG-29UPG

I think the 5th kill wasn't successful, but BVR missiles were confirmed fired, this may be the 5th total kill they are claiming. (Likely what they believe is a Rafale)

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[siegecrossbow]

Despite getting hit repeatedly, Pakistan hasn't performed its retaliatory strike. I feel it's a sign of Pakistan showing too much timidity and defensiveness in the face such overwhelming Indian aggression.

Just cause India launched air launched missiles doesn't mean Pakistan must also launch air launched missiles which is one of the weak spots for Pakistan. They probably don't have very long range air launched cruise missiles.

They can probably go asymmetric and use ground launched cruise missiles. Although this might lead to similar Indian attacks, the way India keeps escalating, this might be inevitable.

It’s not over yet. Despite the Pakistanis Civilian government jumping up and down the Air Force is surprisingly silent compared with 2019. Something is brewing, and I believe it will be something big.