J-20... The New Generation Fighter

[70092]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Most people in China think Taiwan's problem will be solved peacefully without resort to military.

As for PLA's amphibious capacity, yes they have made leaps in this area, currently has the 2nd largest amphibious capacity and the largest amphibious force in the world, and will built more amphibious warship/carriers in the near future.

As for the war, actually you dont understand taiwanese, roughly 20% taiwanese are come from mainland during 1949 civil war and these people are usually prefer re-unification.

These people occupied a majority of senior positions in taiwan society (hence the tension between them and the locals) and that including military, so in case of war, I am not even sure if they will side with the local taiwanese.

In the worst case scenario, when the PRC has to resort to military options, the war is most likely to be rather one-sided and ended surprising quick:

1, PRC can simply use their newly-developed AShBM to block any US air carriers 1500km away.

2, After first bunch of bombardment from Airforce, most of these Pro-Mainland taiwanese in the military will become nature or even side with the PLA.

3, Once the PLA is landing on taiwan, its all over.

 

[danielchin]

Re: New Generation Fighter

...so in case of war, I am not even sure if they will side with the local taiwanese....

That was a dangerous statement and unfortunately some Chinese leaders may have the same illusion too.
I'm the "2nd generation" of Chinese fled to Taiwan after the civil war, and my kids, the "3rd generation", have little difference from the so-called local Taiwanese (actually there is no such a term as "the 3rd generation" at all).
The majority of Taiwanese don't want to resort to war against China, but side with China during war?!
No way!

 

[Blitzo]

Re: New Generation Fighter

LA LE LE DA DA DA - Guys we're way too off topic, lets cut the taiwan related talks before popeye notices!!

 

[bladerunner]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Coming out with a conceptual design in an aircraft cant be that hard, even fan bois have a go. The problem is with the powerplant.

Why is coming up with a decent engine, the weak link in Chinas Aerospace?

Is their material science not developed enough or some other bottleneck. Or is it due to not fully understanding a jet engine or why certains things are done due to years of reverse engineering.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Coming out with a conceptual design in an aircraft cant be that hard, even fan bois have a go. The problem is with the powerplant.

Why is coming up with a decent engine, the weak link in Chinas Aerospace?

Is their material science not developed enough or some other bottleneck. Or is it due to not fully understanding a jet engine or why certains things are done due to years of reverse engineering.

I think engines are a weak link for any country which hasn't fully developed their own engine yet (i.e.: aren't familiar with the ropes), it's not just a Chinese aerospace issue (kaveri being the first non chinese one to come to mind). There's obviously the WS-10 which is the prominent example, but apparently most of the kinks have been smoothed out, and is being put into J-11Bs... When we start seeing J-10's with WS-10's (or even better, when the WS-15 comes out, however long taht may be) - that will probably signify when china's good with designing decent engines.

Shouldn't this be in the WS-10A thread?

 

[danielchin]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Just curious, I read a lot of info from Chinese publication, looks like they are going to install mature Russian engines to their first batch next gen fighters. And my question is, who else, besides US and UK, is able to build and supply China with engines of this class?
France?

 

[rhino123]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Just curious, I read a lot of info from Chinese publication, looks like they are going to install mature Russian engines to their first batch next gen fighters. And my question is, who else, besides US and UK, is able to build and supply China with engines of this class?
France?

I think France is able to manufacture turbofan engine too.

 

[danielchin]

Re: New Generation Fighter

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The official Xinhua news quoted an unofficial HK source saying the 4th generation fighter is ready for "internal small scale" test flights.
Wonder what that means....

 

[Troika]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Coming out with a conceptual design in an aircraft cant be that hard, even fan bois have a go. The problem is with the powerplant.

Why is coming up with a decent engine, the weak link in Chinas Aerospace?

Is their material science not developed enough or some other bottleneck. Or is it due to not fully understanding a jet engine or why certains things are done due to years of reverse engineering.

In a nutshell, yes. You people SERIOUSLY underestimate what it takes to develop a piece of complex equipment, just one, like transmission, gearbox, engine, system lubrikation... let's not even go into system integration, which is a totally new level of pain.

Take an engine. Everything, I mean everything, flow dynamics, materials, internal geometry, specifications... they are specialist fields. This is just design phase. Then you get to manufacturing, optimisation, testing, how do you machine the blades? Cast the crystals? What sort of tolerance? How for to balance cost and speed and safety? How to make sure working? Can run on ground or tower test, but maybe at high flow level engine vibrations are at unacceptable level (such as shake airframe apart), how to tell?

EACH one of these are specialist fields and you really want to be able to base off a previous design. Falling behind a few years could have disastrous conseuquences. Give you an example. WWI Imperial Germany aircraft engines equal of any on Earth. Then have Versailles, German aerialengine industry stalled for about a decade. By WWII Germann engines are lousy, really struggling to produce a large 2000 hp engine while USA making 5000 hp radials [there is also issue of forced specialisation, the Germans lost so much expertise they couldn't focus in divebomberengine, fighter engine AND large bomber engine, so have to compromise]. Their engines also unreliable, lack commonality of parts, expensive to manufacture having too many fine parts with extremely tight tolerances. And they burst into flames when spoken to harshly (this is not a joke, look up on Jumo-4).

And this is what 12-year hiatus (not full hiatus, Germany having engine co-operation with Soviet Union in that time, and made commercial aerialengines, amongst others) does to a once world-class industry.

Now consider an industry with literally zero experience, learning from the not-quite world-class then industry (Soviet Union) 60 years ago for only 10 years, and experienced TWO periods of massive disruptions of 10 years (Cultural revolution and Deng slashing arms budget) within said 60 years.

Do you get the sheer size of task now?

p.s: For further idea of importance of keeping design and engineer lineage, consider Hochseeflotte and Kriegsmarine. Former has world-class ship-designs. Latter is bad joke.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Re: New Generation Fighter

In a nutshell, yes. You people SERIOUSLY underestimate what it takes to develop a piece of complex equipment, just one, like transmission, gearbox, engine, system lubrikation... let's not even go into system integration, which is a totally new level of pain.

Take an engine. Everything, I mean everything, flow dynamics, materials, internal geometry, specifications... they are specialist fields. This is just design phase. Then you get to manufacturing, optimisation, testing, how do you machine the blades? Cast the crystals? What sort of tolerance? How for to balance cost and speed and safety? How to make sure working? Can run on ground or tower test, but maybe at high flow level engine vibrations are at unacceptable level (such as shake airframe apart), how to tell?

EACH one of these are specialist fields and you really want to be able to base off a previous design. Falling behind a few years could have disastrous conseuquences. Give you an example. WWI Imperial Germany aircraft engines equal of any on Earth. Then have Versailles, German aerialengine industry stalled for about a decade. By WWII Germann engines are lousy, really struggling to produce a large 2000 hp engine while USA making 5000 hp radials [there is also issue of forced specialisation, the Germans lost so much expertise they couldn't focus in divebomberengine, fighter engine AND large bomber engine, so have to compromise]. Their engines also unreliable, lack commonality of parts, expensive to manufacture having too many fine parts with extremely tight tolerances. And they burst into flames when spoken to harshly (this is not a joke, look up on Jumo-4).

And this is what 12-year hiatus (not full hiatus, Germany having engine co-operation with Soviet Union in that time, and made commercial aerialengines, amongst others) does to a once world-class industry.

Now consider an industry with literally zero experience, learning from the not-quite world-class then industry (Soviet Union) 60 years ago for only 10 years, and experienced TWO periods of massive disruptions of 10 years (Cultural revolution and Deng slashing arms budget) within said 60 years.

Do you get the sheer size of task now?

p.s: For further idea of importance of keeping design and engineer lineage, consider Hochseeflotte and Kriegsmarine. Former has world-class ship-designs. Latter is bad joke.

Excellent analysis may I add not only is China hampered by low industrial base and recurrent politic disruption. She also has to contend with the strickest embargo ever imposed on a country. Let consider the first stage of Turbine here you have temperature exceeding 2000 deg F coming from combustion chamber . Now how you are going to cool the turbine blade ?.
You need single crystal material blade and drill hole inside it to cool it with air

For long time China cannot even buy 5 axis NC Machine . She now produce it themselves