Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Really? What make you make that statement?? What type ship of that size has ever been sunk by conventional weapons? Name the place and what sort of action was taken to sink a ship via conventional air launched weapons the size of an CV.

Did you know that in May 2005 the retired USN CV ex-USS America CV-66 was towed to sea to be sunk by conventional weapons...I posted this in this very thread on 10.21.2006



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What a pity, one isnt able to equate the amount or ordances used to scuttle her to the amount of D21 hits, nevessary to sink her., or would it be like trying to compare apples with oranges?.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

What a pity, one isnt able to equate the amount or ordances used to scuttle her to the amount of D21 hits, nevessary to sink her., or would it be like trying to compare apples with oranges?.
I'd say it is like comparing apples to oranges.

The US knows (and probably the PLAN can figure) what amount of scuttling charges to use. The US also knows how many missiles and other ordinance was actually expended and which proved unable to sink her (which the PLAN is not privy too).

Compared to that, we have no verifable live fire test of a D21 sinking any vessel at all that I know of.

So yes, it is like comparing apples and oranges.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

The US knows (and probably the PLAN can figure) what amount of scuttling charges to use. The US also knows how many missiles and other ordinance was actually expended and which proved unable to sink her (which the PLAN is not privy too).

The sinking of CV-66 took place 4 & 1/2 years ago. What ever it took to sink her and what sort of punishment she absorbed for nearly three weeks in May 2005 is classified now and for a very long time to come.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Furthermore people act as if there are no counters to this sort of technology. There are, and, guess what, they're ALREADY OPERATIONAL. The SM-3 is the best known one. So let's see we have on the one hand a rumored technology in development and on the other hand an operational, real-life tested system that already exists to counter the rumored technology.

Actually the ASBM is a rumored but feasible technology while the US openly admits that the current sea based ABM is only capable of intercepting a very modest attack with primitive Nodong or Shahab-level missiles. The US admits that it is not capable of intercepting missiles that are generations ahead like China's BMs.

In my opinion multiple air launched cruise missiles may do the trick of sinking the carriers. ALCM are more like kamikaze flown planes but with more precision and devistation. Just a thought.

If a saturation attack can be mounted, an AEGIS cruiser can be overwhelmed. AB's weakness is that it must illuminate an incoming missile with one of its three illuminators before it can guide a missile. The actual amount of time it needs to get a lock is not publicized but estimates are around 5 seconds plus 1 or 2 seconds for an illuminator to rotate into place. (The three illuminators face different directions.) Then the missile has to launch and destroy the target, which consumes another 5 seconds or so.

In a saturation attack, the AB will need at least 12 seconds to destroy the first missile. By then the other missiles will be much much closer. Destroying the next one will take another 7 seconds at least, and then the other missiles are closer yet. And so on until the missiles impact.

Just as an estimation, I think an AB can take out 14 missiles or so in a saturation attack with sea skimming subsonic missiles. After that, it's all up to the CIWS and passive defenses. So a volley of 30 missiles, well executed, or so would definitely overwhelm a single AB.

If there are 4 AB's in a group, that's 120 missiles to take out the escorts. This number will be lower if the ASM uses rocket propulsion once it pops up over the horizon, or if it is coated with RAM and has stealthy shape, or if has a high-G endgame maneuver.


I think some of the arguments there raises many (substantive) questions about the reliability of the Aegis / SM3 , and its ability (or inability) to track & shoot down a North Korea BM (let alone a PLA ASBM screaming in at M5+ )

I think because of fundamental limitations for BMD system you need to have lots of sensors far far away from the launch platform, deployed well ahead of time. That's one of the weaknesses that limits the system to shooting down rouge nation BMs.

You're never going to have a single ship detecting an SLBM launch from an unexpected direction and then launching a missile itself and destroying it.


I challenge Wolvie or you to show a way to operate a carriage munition in the Mach 14-20 regime when current carriage munitions all operate at a fraction of this speed.

For instance, the warhead could be covered with ablative material for reentry but inside are baseball-sized tungsten balls. The warhead explodes just above the carrier, raining baseball-sized balls traveling at mach 8 in a circle with roughly 500 meter radius.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Actually the ASBM is a rumored but feasible technology while the US openly admits that the current sea based ABM is only capable of intercepting a very modest attack with primitive Nodong or Shahab-level missiles. The US admits that it is not capable of intercepting missiles that are generations ahead like China's BMs.

Thats interesting, can you direct me to the link where you got that info? The opinions Ive come across are by various commentators researchers from various foundations etc etc, it would be good to get it from the horses mouth.
 
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Scratch

Captain
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

In a saturation attack, the AB will need at least 12 seconds to destroy the first missile. By then the other missiles will be much much closer. Destroying the next one will take another 7 seconds at least, and then the other missiles are closer yet. And so on until the missiles impact.

:confused: You yourself say an AB has three illuminators and then argue it can only engage one missile at a time. So actually your first three missiles will be intercepted in the timeframe that is necessary to ripple launch the interceptors. Maybe one to two seconds.(?) Not 14 or so as you make it appear.
 

Wolverine

Banned Idiot
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Against hard targets such as vehicles or fortified structures, it is not effective to simply scatter these sub-munitions. The parachute or the balute mechanism serve not only as you said to slow down the vehicle's descent so it can attempt to locate the target, but also as a mean for ALL vehicles, aka sub-munitions, in a single delivery to create a general contour, or ground shaping, of the area intended for destruction, which would include those vehicles or fortified structures. Even though this hypothetical anti-ship ballistic missile may dispense its cluster munitions from a point whose vertical descent component is much greater than horizontal travel, there is still some horizontal travel for these sub-munitions and at double-digit Mach, they do not have much time to attempt to locate and array themselves inflight into formation to fall within that intended contour.
No. There is no need to "array" submunitions into any kind of "contour" at all. This is not a requirement just because you would like it to be. There is no need to "locate" anything either. The submunitions would be essentially dumb bomblets scattered into an area determined by the time of release prior to impact as well as the speed of rotation of the missile body.

The USS Ranger did it back in RIMPAC 1986. For two weeks the ship conducted attacks against land and sea targets and no one from Hawaii managed to find the Ranger. All air operations were done in radio silence. Over-the-horizon radars are not new and could not find the ship.
You're attempting to conflate facts for which you almost certainly have no evidence. If you do, let's see the evidence for the association between "Over-the-horizon radars are not new" and "could not find the ship". Was there one in Hawaii that was looking for the carrier group at the time of the exercise? Prove it. Was it even pointed in the direction of the exercise? Those things can't be redirected. You do know that do you not?

The US admits that it is not capable of intercepting missiles that are generations ahead like China's BMs.
I've never read any such admission. Let's see some evidence: provide a link.

If a saturation attack can be mounted, an AEGIS cruiser can be overwhelmed. AB's weakness is that it must illuminate an incoming missile with one of its three illuminators before it can guide a missile. The actual amount of time it needs to get a lock is not publicized but estimates are around 5 seconds plus 1 or 2 seconds for an illuminator to rotate into place. (The three illuminators face different directions.) Then the missile has to launch and destroy the target, which consumes another 5 seconds or so.

In a saturation attack, the AB will need at least 12 seconds to destroy the first missile. By then the other missiles will be much much closer. Destroying the next one will take another 7 seconds at least, and then the other missiles are closer yet. And so on until the missiles impact.

Just as an estimation, I think an AB can take out 14 missiles or so in a saturation attack with sea skimming subsonic missiles. After that, it's all up to the CIWS and passive defenses. So a volley of 30 missiles, well executed, or so would definitely overwhelm a single AB.

If there are 4 AB's in a group, that's 120 missiles to take out the escorts. This number will be lower if the ASM uses rocket propulsion once it pops up over the horizon, or if it is coated with RAM and has stealthy shape, or if has a high-G endgame maneuver.
Roger, where did you get the "estimate" of 5 seconds of terminal illumination for the Mk 99 director come from? Yourself? If we are just speculating then I will guess 1 to 2 seconds. If the carrier is extremely unlucky and gets all its AWACS planes destroyed, there's a good chance the escorts will not be able to engage antiship missiles until they come over the radar horizon at about 30km or so. Otherwise, they will know exactly what direction(s) the attack is coming from, and their radar directors will already be pointed in the appropriate directions. Their entire load of SM-2's will already have been launched and many of the inbound missiles will have been destroyed by means of the SM-2's IR seeker, which allows them to perform OTH targeting. BTW getting past this barrage also means that attacking enemy aircraft have already destroyed most or all of the carrier's air wing. In any case 120 attacking missiles is a joke. The actual number is more realistically between 5 to 10 times that, depending on the number of escorts the carrier is with. In a realistic scenario you will have to completely deplete the escorts' air defense missiles. Overwhelming Aegis or the fire control radars is going to be a non-issue.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Thats interesting, can you direct me to the link where you got that info? The opinions Ive come across are by various commentators researchers from various foundations etc etc, it would be good to get it from the horses mouth.

Do a search on the SM-3's new "block system". It shows you what is currently feasible and what is still theoretical.

Also, there are US sources showing that BMD technology cannot defeat certain simple countermeasures. These countermeasures of course are well within China's capabilities but probably not within the capability of nascent nuclear powers like North Korea and Iran.

:confused: You yourself say an AB has three illuminators and then argue it can only engage one missile at a time. So actually your first three missiles will be intercepted in the timeframe that is necessary to ripple launch the interceptors. Maybe one to two seconds.(?) Not 14 or so as you make it appear.

Three illuminators covering 360 degrees. One or maximum two illuminators can actually target the missiles.

Roger, where did you get the "estimate" of 5 seconds of terminal illumination for the Mk 99 director come from? Yourself?

Australian airpower estimates 7 seconds including the time it takes for the illuminator to rotate.

If we are just speculating then I will guess 1 to 2 seconds.

The official line is that illumination (not including rotation) is needed for the last "few seconds". "Few seconds" does not mean 1 or 2 -- it should mean at least 3 but less than 10.

The Australian airpower estimate of 7 seconds is reasonable to me. You can use this to calculate how quickly an illuminator can fend off a salvo of ASM. Each time an incoming missile is destroyed, the other missiles get closer and closer.

Your estimate assumes that the carrier's fighter cover exists. I am talking strictly about the technical limits of AEGIS -- in a full featured scenario, the carrier's fighter cover of course would need to be engaged.

IR seeker for SM-2 (Block IIIB) is brand new technology. I question how effective they could be against small, subsonic cruising sea skimmers. IR seeker is for close range work.

There are lots of variable and unknowns here. Consider the effect of a final stage using rocket booster, stealth shaping and coating and high-G endgame maneuvers. All these make things even more difficult for the illuminator to keep up.
 

Scratch

Captain
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Three illuminators covering 360 degrees. One or maximum two illuminators can actually target the missiles.

While there are restrictions in the illuminators field of view, an AB can still maneuver to bring all it's SPG-62 on target, if the need arises.

IR seeker for SM-2 (Block IIIB) is brand new technology. I question how effective they could be against small, subsonic cruising sea skimmers. IR seeker is for close range work.

Brand new technology??:confused: IR seekers have been on missiles for over five decades now. Just because you put a proven tech on a proven missile does not at all mean engineers have to reinvent the wheel.
By your logic IRIS-T, AIM-132, AIM-9X, Python 5 and PL-9 etc. are all unreliable missiles. Modern IR missiles can be fired BVR, have a LOAL capability and can for sure see AShM. An SM-2 IIIB can still be guided to the vicinity of a target and then can "take over visually when tally ho":).
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Would Two brigades totalling 17 launchers(being the number Ive read )be enough to launch a saturation attack on a couple of fleets?.

I think it was Dean Wickening or some other contributor to the (iis-db.stanford.edu) site, that wrote that although it was to be expected that a mobile launcher could launch several missiles a day, under a shoot and scoot approach, you could expect to only get one away.?
 
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