054B/next generation frigate

[didklmyself]

So correct me if I am wrong
Is the main role frigate for PLAN is to establish sovereignty ? Meaning the frigates are not typically employed as part of a carrier group ?

No, he just states that frigate help in establishing dominance over disputed territory... They do operate with carrier battlegroups.

 

[GiantPanda]

So correct me if I am wrong
Is the main role frigate for PLAN is to establish sovereignty ? Meaning the frigates are not typically employed as part of a carrier group ?

Type 054As have a variety of roles including Carrier Groups escorts and anti-piracy missions to the Indian Ocean.

But there are only two inducted carriers and about three task forces to the Gulf of Aden every year.

There are 40 Type 054As -- and 36 Type 052C/Ds -- that form the bulk of the PLAN's growing surface fleet. Most of their time are spent in the near abroad up to the first island chain.

 

[cornerodriguez]

1) La tecnología ha avanzado mucho en 20 años, muchos conocimientos que no se podían lograr entonces son comunes ahora. Un buque de guerra está lleno de tecnología avanzada. Por ejemplo, compare el teléfono o la computadora que usaba hace 20 años con el de hoy.
2) 20 años no es la vida útil de un buque de guerra del tamaño de una fragata o superior. 30 más algunos años es normal.
3) El 054B no reemplaza al tipo 054A cuando se pongan en servicio los nuevos barcos. es decir, a medida que se agrega el tipo 054B, el tipo 054A no se retirará a menos que las fragatas más antiguas hayan alcanzado entre 30 y 35 años de servicio con PLAN.
4) No existe Jubilación Anticipada del tipo 054A.

Por ejemplo, en 2028, digamos que entran en servicio 12 nuevos tipos 54B. Y sólo 6 del tipo 054A han alcanzado la edad de jubilación. Entonces sólo se retirarán 6 barcos más antiguos y se añadirán 12 nuevos.

¿China va a añadir más fragatas de las que tiene ahora? Sí, esa es la expectativa de muchos observadores militares de China.

¿Por qué quieren agregar más buques de guerra? Porque tienen que hacerlo, cuando se enfrentan a la grave amenaza de Estados Unidos y sus aliados como AUKUS, OTAN, Five Eyes, Japón, Australia, India, etc.

Saludos. Cuando una gran potencia anuncia que eres su amenaza más cercana, ¿qué debes hacer? ¿Qué puedes esperar? ¿Puedes pensar que es sólo un anuncio?

 

[wssth0306]

Type 054As have a variety of roles including Carrier Groups escorts and anti-piracy missions to the Indian Ocean.

But there are only two inducted carriers and about three task forces to the Gulf of Aden every year.

There are 40 Type 054As -- and 36 Type 052C/Ds -- that form the bulk of the PLAN's growing surface fleet. Most of their time are spent in the near abroad up to the first island chain.

Make sense , then help me understand what role frigate in 2020s needs to fulfill ?
I am not sure I understand the the overlap in Anti air , Anti ship , Anti submarine capabilities between a modern destroyer and frigate.
It obvious that both are needed , but how the function together then ? Is this the same principle of economy of force ? meaning frigate could handle tasks that other wise would take a destroyer there by freeing it to perform other task ?

 

[GiantPanda]

Make sense , then help me understand what role frigate in 2020s needs to fulfill ?
I am not sure I understand the the overlap in Anti air , Anti ship , Anti submarine capabilities between a modern destroyer and frigate.
It obvious that both are needed , but how the function together then ? Is this the same principle of economy of force ? meaning frigate could handle tasks that other wise would take a destroyer there by freeing it to perform other task ?

A2A, ASh and ASW are tactical missions a warship would undertake in combat. The tactical role it would take in say a formation would depend on other ships in the group.

Destroyers are larger and have more sensors and weapons with longer range. Frigates are smaller and so less expensive and ideally more numerous. But if you look at the frigates in the West, they are the same size as destroyers so the terms are becoming meaningless.

The PLAN, though, definitely follows the terms in the traditional sense. The Type 054A frigate is explicitly smaller than the 052C/D destroyers. So you would deploy them in different ways. Destroyers can provide wide area anti-air for a carrier task force while the frigates with shorter range weapons take up picket positions on the fringe for anti-sub.

When used individually, the frigates would be used in lower threat areas nearer to hone waters to match lower endurance and weapons fit. Destroyers would range farther and in more hostile territory.

For much of the middle part of the two decades that the 054As have been around, it was the most numerous blue-water ship in the PLAN (discounting the decidedly green-water 056A.) It undertook long trips to the Indian Ocean as well as patrolled the close-by China Seas. The 052D became so numerous in recent years that some of the previous dynamics have changed. The 054A could probably be replaced in the longer deployments by the 052D. It will certainly be replaced by the 054B for carrier escort and long range duty as that ship is larger with more endurance and speed.

But China definitely still likes the 054A for patrols around China. That is why it is still being built for the CG. In fact, it will likely go the way of the 056(maybe some A as well?) which are progressively transferred from Navy to CG as China gets more 052DLs, 055s and 054Bs.

PLAN is looking like it will get progressively bigger ships for its blue-water fleet while transferring the remaining 054As to greenwater missions. There are still around 50 056As in PLAN, we do not know if all of them will go to the CG. But it seems the Navy is holding onto the 054A for certain because unlike the 056 there have been no transfers. The CG literally have to order new 054A hulls for their cutters.

From the Navy's standpoint, they may want to keep huge numbers of 054As and 056As in green water not just to patrol but to saturate near seas for anti-sub warfare.

Also task forces will grow around new LDP/LHP/LHA's that are coming online.

It'll interesting to see how things shake out!

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

But if you look at the frigates in the West, they are the same size as destroyers so the terms are becoming meaningless.

A lot of Western non-US navies either have phased out destroyers or in the process of phasing out destroyers - so their frigates essentially becomes destroyers. Essentially they are becoming single principal surface combatant navies and the classification of frigate is for political reasons. Distinction between frigate/destroyer is only relevant for navies that operate both classes of warship.

 

[wssth0306]

A2A, ASh and ASW are tactical missions a warship would undertake in combat. The tactical role it would take in say a formation would depend on other ships in the group.

Destroyers are larger and have more sensors and weapons with longer range. Frigates are smaller and so less expensive and ideally more numerous. But if you look at the frigates in the West, they are the same size as destroyers so the terms are becoming meaningless.

The PLAN, though, definitely follows the terms in the traditional sense. The Type 054A frigate is explicitly smaller than the 052C/D destroyers. So you would deploy them in different ways. Destroyers can provide wide area anti-air for a carrier task force while the frigates with shorter range weapons take up picket positions on the fringe for anti-sub.

When used individually, the frigates would be used in lower threat areas nearer to hone waters to match lower endurance and weapons fit. Destroyers would range farther and in more hostile territory.

For much of the middle part of the two decades that the 054As have been around, it was the most numerous blue-water ship in the PLAN (discounting the decidedly green-water 056A.) It undertook long trips to the Indian Ocean as well as patrolled the close-by China Seas. The 052D became so numerous in recent years that some of the previous dynamics have changed. The 054A could probably be replaced in the longer deployments by the 052D. It will certainly be replaced by the 054B for carrier escort and long range duty as that ship is larger with more endurance and speed.

But China definitely still likes the 054A for patrols around China. That is why it is still being built for the CG. In fact, it will likely go the way of the 056(maybe some A as well?) which are progressively transferred from Navy to CG as China gets more 052DLs, 055s and 054Bs.

PLAN is looking like it will get progressively bigger ships for its blue-water fleet while transferring the remaining 054As to greenwater missions. There are still around 50 056As in PLAN, we do not know if all of them will go to the CG. But it seems the Navy is holding onto the 054A for certain because unlike the 056 there have been no transfers. The CG literally have to order new 054A hulls for their cutters.

From the Navy's standpoint, they may want to keep huge numbers of 054As and 056As in green water not just to patrol but to saturate near seas for anti-sub warfare.

Also task forces will grow around new LDP/LHP/LHA's that are coming online.

It'll interesting to see how things shake out!

so why not a 054A 052D 055 mixed fleet ? why build 054B ?
if I understand you correctly , basically everything 054B can do 052D would do better ,but cost much more.
Since frigates in PLAN make more sense for low threat areas , isn't 054A enough for them already ? can't PLAN order more 054A instead of a bigger and presumably more costly 054B ?
For high threat environment 052D and 055 will employed , with 052D replacing the frigates.

 

[Blitzo]

so why not a 054A 052D 055 mixed fleet ? why build 054B ?

The current existing fleet is basically 054A/052D/055 in structure.

However 054A is a nearly 20 year old design now, and there are evolving threats that will emerge in the next few years into the next 20+ years which 054A is ill suited and fitted to face.

054B isn't going to suddenly replace all 054As in the next two years. It will take 5-10 years if not more for 054Bs to be built to replace current 054As (if not longer), and think about what the threat environment will be in 5-10 years time.

if I understand you correctly , basically everything 054B can do 052D would do better ,but cost much more.
Since frigates in PLAN make more sense for low threat areas , isn't 054A enough for them already ? can't PLAN order more 054A instead of a bigger and presumably more costly 054B ?
For high threat environment 052D and 055 will employed , with 052D replacing the frigates.

The bolded part is true -- 052D can do things better than 054B, but 052D is much more expensive. 052D is more capable than 054B but it's much more expensive, so you cannot fill every slot with 052D obviously.

As for 054As being used in low threat areas -- 054As are not enough for the evolving lower threat space. What is considered low threat today or five years ago, may not be low threat in five or more years time.
054B offers a more capable frigate that can survive somewhat independently in low threat to medium threat environments, while contributing meaningfully to higher threat environments in support of more capable forces (with naval and joint force).

 

[tamsen_ikard]

I think 054B is a disappointing upgrade. It makes no meaningful upgrade to the armamant from the looks of it. Same HQ-16 VLS with the same VLS count. If it uses slant launchers with old school subsonic anti-ship missiles then it will be the exact same armament package. The only saving grace will be if they Switch from 8 Yj-83 to 16 YJ-12 missiles. Then it could be considered a bit more uparmed in terms of land and anti-ship attack.

So far, I have been very disappointed with the 054B. Maybe all that tonnage went to endurance and that is its only saving grace.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

I think 054B is a disappointing upgrade. It makes no meaningful upgrade to the armamant from the looks of it. Same HQ-16 VLS with the same VLS count. If it uses slant launchers with old school subsonic anti-ship missiles then it will be the exact same armament package. The only saving grace will be if they Switch from 8 Yj-83 to 16 YJ-12 missiles. Then it could be considered a bit more uparmed in terms of land and anti-ship attack.

So far, I have been very disappointed with the 054B. Maybe all that tonnage went to endurance and that is its only saving grace.

Endurance, speed, sensors, electronics, power generation crew comfort are far more important than anti ship missiles, which is the least important metric for a mass produced general purpose frigate. Even USN doctrine focuses on distributed lethality, more hulls > packing more weapons. PLAN surface fleet is already very missile heavy compared to other blue water navies. Frigate antiship missile is only for self defense and engaging adversaries auxiliaries and logistics. Naval combat against a peer surface fleet is going to occur at beyond the maximum range of YJ-12/YJ-18.