Europe Refugee Crisis

solarz

Brigadier
I know that Canada has offered 25,000 places and Australia 12,000. Nevertheless Europe is facing a 3 to 4 million refugees problem. It is a problem the Europeans have to deal with and with solutions they deemed appropriate within their capabilities. The criticisms in my view are from people with no skin in the game and from a moral pedestal without obligations.

You mean the people who told the EU not to bomb Libya and give weapons to anti-Assad rebels?

Isn't it funny how the same people who are now trying to turn back refugees are the same people who said we had to regime-change Gaddafi and Assad for "humanitarian reasons"?
 

Brumby

Major
You mean the people who told the EU not to bomb Libya and give weapons to anti-Assad rebels?

Isn't it funny how the same people who are now trying to turn back refugees are the same people who said we had to regime-change Gaddafi and Assad for "humanitarian reasons"?
The only people having to deal with the refugee problem wholesale are the Europeans. Whether you agree or not with their solutions, they are the only ones who can make that determination because they carry the weight of the problem. The rest of us are frankly spectators unless you are prepared to step up and carry the weight.

I don't know who you are talking about.
 

JayBird

Junior Member
The only people having to deal with the refugee problem wholesale are the Europeans. Whether you agree or not with their solutions, they are the only ones who can make that determination because they carry the weight of the problem. The rest of us are frankly spectators unless you are prepared to step up and carry the weight.

I don't know who you are talking about.

I would agree with you if EU is not the main reason that created this refugee problem in the first place. You created the mess, now you take care of them.
 

Brumby

Major
I would agree with you if EU is not the main reason that created this refugee problem in the first place. You created the mess, now you take care of them.
There is an immediate problem that you will need to address as per your reasoning. There seems to be a prevailing narrative that Europe is responsible. I would like to understand your legal reasoning behind it.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Looking back at the last 5 years, if it was just the Iraq invasion, it could have been manageable. In fact, it was being managed relatively well until Obama pulled out the American troops. Of course, it's pretty easy to see that it was the relative optimism on Iraq that prompted certain administrations to further indulge in military adventurism. The destruction of the Gaddafi regime had wide reaching consequences. First, it spread the wave of rebellion throughout the region, the so-called "Arab Spring". Second, it created a perfect breeding ground for extremist militia, who then spread out across the region. Combine this with the premature withdrawal of the American troops in Iraq, an act that directly led to advanced US military equipment falling into the hands of ISIS, and you have set the stage for the tragedy that we are now seeing unfolding. It certainly didn't help matters that certain nations continued to funnel money and weapons to anti-Assad factions, resources that ended up in the hands of ISIS and al-Qaeda affiliates.

We've all read about events in history that made us go "what the hell were they thinking?". The domino treaty effects of WW1, for example, the appeasement of Hitler in the years that led-up to WW2, the Bay of Pigs invasion, etc. I think future generations will read about our current events and get the same feeling.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
SD is not a political, ideological, or religious forum.

Posts leaning that way and responses to them are being deleted.

This thread is about the European Refugee Crisis from Syria. Not a history lesson about the Roman Empire, not about bashing Bush, blaming the EU, blaming the US, or Russia, or etc., et.

Anymore of this will lead to this thread being suspended.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION.
 
Oh I'm totally with you here. ...
thanks Scratch, thanks Brumby
... The problem currently is Europe is just reacting and not having a set of policies (with resources behind it) that is truly managing the problem. ...
thanks Air Force Brat again, for having read my USELESS posts: this morning I happened to hear in the radio the French Ambassador to the Czech Republic who's said like "we can't allow European Union to become a fortress", which corresponds with a number of so Politically Correct articles (at major servers) I saw since the attacks ... I'll leave this with the question:

What else Islamic goons (either those already here, coming, or the new recruits from millions who are to arrive next year and won't be satisfied with the welfare money) will have to "achieve" before they're kept where they're coming from, is it ... an airplane hijacked, a nuclear power-plant hijacked?? I'm at a complete loss here, and I'm not going to post on this any more.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
What else Islamic goons (either those already here, coming, or the new recruits from millions who are to arrive next year and won't be satisfied with the welfare money) will have to "achieve" before they're kept where they're coming from, is it ... an airplane hijacked, a nuclear power-plant hijacked?? I'm at a complete loss here, and I'm not going to post on this any more.

No one has ever, or will ever object to keeping the "goons" out, the problem lies in how to root out the few extremist elements within the refugee masses without resorting to heavy-handed and disproportionate measures that makes hundreds of thousands or even millions of innocents (who already risked everything and endured much to get to the boarders of Europe) suffer unnecessarily.

A handful amongst millions committed the atrocity in Paris, and it now looks like many of those who were involved were French citizens, thus not only is blaming the Syrian refugees misplacing the blame, its never going to work.

Because even if you ban every single man woman and child from Syria from the EU, the attackers would have still got through with their French passports somehow.

The attackers probably used fake Syrian passports (in that the identifies of the men carrying them were faked, the passports themselves were almost certainly real ones, that ISIS captured from Syrian government passport offices, which they were able to make using all the legitimate equipment and base materials also captured to make it impossible for anyone to detect the forgery) and the mass or refugees as cover to re-enter Europe, since many or all of them would likely have been on police watch lists. It would have been riskier, and some of them would likely have been stopped and caught at the boarder, but some would be able to slip through nonetheless.

Causing a humanitarian catastrophe right on the doorstep of Europe is not the solution to any problem, it will be the reason and cause of further, worse attacks.

They key to combating terrorism is to stop the flow of money and fresh recruits.

Money is a totally different matter, but you are only helping the terrorists swell their ranks by stopping the refugees coming into the EU.

By all means, screen them, process them, segregate them unit that has been done. But do that inside the EU's boarders, where EU police could enforce European laws and values within the camps and stop the radicals gaining any sway. Provide decent accommodation, food, water and medical treatment so the refugees do not suffer more than necessary.

Set up schools, language classes, job fairs and work gangs inside the camp to help keep moral up and aid with eventual integration of the refugees into the wider public community.

But most importantly of all, use the real refugees as your first line of defence. Get them to look to their neighbours and report any suspicious activities to the EU police.

The EU could thus process and absorb all the refugees in an orderly, safe manner, even if it takes years to do.

The alternative to absorbing all those refugees is to make their homeland safe again.

The EU could get on board with the Russians and help cut off outside support to ISIS so Assad's forces and the Russians could get on with taking the fight to ISIS in Syria and exterminating them. Or the EU could really pull it's thumb out and join the fight directly on the ground in Syria.

Come down from Turkey, and crush ISIS between the EU armies and Assad's forces. Make Syria a safe place to return to and the EU's refugee crisis takes care of itself.
 
I've been quoted by the post which contains parts so naive
But most importantly of all, use the real refugees as your first line of defence. Get them to look to their neighbours and report any suspicious activities to the EU police.

The EU could thus process and absorb all the refugees in an orderly, safe manner, even if it takes years to do.
and so disturbing
No one has ever, or will ever object to keeping the "goons" out, the problem lies in how to root out the few extremist elements within the refugee masses without resorting to heavy-handed and disproportionate measures that makes hundreds of thousands or even millions of innocents (who already risked everything and endured much to get to the boarders of Europe) suffer unnecessarily.
that I decided to react, despite
I'm not going to post on this any more.

How do you know who from among of the people on a beach holding smartphones is "the few extremist elements within the refugee masses", or who will "join" later? You don't! And I'm stupefied by "Refugee Welcome" attitude in the present situation, parts I quoted plus I'll repeat myself to quickly get a quote for what exactly I mean:
...
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this: "We should not mix the different categories of people coming to
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. The one responsible for the attacks in Paris … he is a criminal and not a refugee and not an asylum seeker." ...
But OK, let's suppose I'm some paranoid hater (a dozen of Muslim medical students who invited me to celebrate the end of Ramadan in the dorm about a quarter of century ago, and with whom I briefly danced on this occasion, could still be located, and I think they would tell you I'm no hater), and let's suppose I was wrong in my recent posts as no attacks will be mounted by any of millions of refugees during years to come. Then, let's say two years from now, I'll tell myself: Oh, I looked as some paranoid hater after November 2015 Paris attacks, how embarrassing!

Now, what will you say if my alarming posts were not wrong?

In a second I'll give Like to plawolf thus trying to indicate my response is nothing personal against him, I just disagree completely. I'm done here.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I've been quoted by the post which contains parts so naive

and so disturbing

Haha, how could my suggestions be naïve and disturbing all at the same time?

How do you know who from among of the people on a beach holding smartphones is "the few extremist elements within the refugee masses", or who will "join" later? You don't! And I'm stupefied by "Refugee Welcome" attitude in the present situation, parts I quoted plus I'll repeat myself to quickly get a quote for what exactly I mean:

That is the problem faced with security forces - how can you tell the good guys from the bad amongst a sea of pleading, desperate people and you only have as long as it takes for them to get a seat on a bus/train?

You cannot, which is why the terrorists are getting through.

My solution is to let the refugees in, but keep them quarantined in camps. You avert a humanitarian and moral disaster, but do not compromise your own security.

They can come in as refugees, and will be looked after and treated as such, but they will not automatically get settlement rights within the EU because they are refugees. Not when there are that many of them.

You cannot tell if someone is a radical traveling with them but your chances gets exponentially better if you live and work with someone for months or years at a time. Its a little Big Brother and police state like to use citizens to spy and inform on each other, but it works.

Having them in camps also allows you the time to make sure everyone is thoroughly vetted, and only those with the qualifications needed and who's background and story could be verified as unimpeachable would be allowed to leave the camps to integrate with society at large. Even after, I would still have the security forces keep close eyes on them, and demand strict registration and other security related conditions as part of the terms and conditions of allowing them to settle.

In the meantime, send in the troops to clear ISIS out of Syria once and for all so the refugees you don't want or need could go home (and most of them would want to after years stuck in a refugee camp).

I think far from naïve, my suggestions are very radical and borderline draconian. But they are not as heartless, silly and ineffective as the British Government's suggestion of only allowing in women and children, even if they are traveling with male relatives.
 
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