Dong-Feng, J-9 and Co. - failed projects

At least in my obinion those military equipments that never saw actual service altough being very promising desings and perhaps even revolutionar tends to be one of the most interesting things. XB-70, TRS.1, Mirage 4000 and so on...adding it to my weird enthusiaism of inventing these long-term "what-if" scenarious, sometimes you get quite interesting mixes....China shares also one of those...exspecially the J-9 fighter.


Anyway , I once came agross this story in "Encyclopedia of World Military Aircraft" (Aerospace Publishing, 1994) about CATIC J-9. It was the spark that eventually led me here...giving hard time to various people in chinese military forum...And the plane still remains more of a mystery for me. While surfing on other chinese related forums i've managed to find out bit more but still many important fact concerning the project remains "out there".

So what i'm trying to say here is that why not using this forum as it should be and let's see if we can come up something covering the J-9 project as well as it is possiple with our somewhat limited resources. So if you have anything additional info on J-9 project, post it here.

I first toughted of posting this to the Vip-forum, but our vip members (no offence in anyway) seems to be more conserned about land warfare and naval matters than aviation issues.

For starter, heres the text from the book i mentioned above:

The CATIC J-9, seen only in model form, and propaply unbuilt, is an advanced tactical fighter aircraft apparently loosely based on Mikoyan MiG-23 technology. MiG-23s were reportedly aquired from Egypt for evaluation in return for Chengdu F-7s abd MiG-21/F-7 spare parts and support. The J-9 project is propaply waiting for for foreing orders or funding prior to prototype construction. Two slightly different J-9 cobfigurations have been observed, each whit a revisited wing and whit quite different intakes. The J-9 seems to combine MiG-23 tpy fuselage with a new low-set fixed delta wing and with canard foreplanes on the engine intakes. This gives the aircraft a configuration reminicnt of the Saab 37 Viggen. Compared to standart MiG-23, the J-9 has a slightly recontuored fin, with a square to, reduced leading-edge sweep and an abbreviated dorsal fin fillet. The folding ventral wing is unchanged. One configuration (possiple the first) had a simple delta wing and retained MiG-23 style intakes with variable intake ramps, while the seccond introduced leading-edge root extensions of greater sweep and intakes with variable shock-cone centrebodies. Both configurations appeared to retain the MiG-23's ventral cannon pod, and carried outboard underwing fule tanks and inboard PL-10 air-to-air missiles. Becouse the aircraft is as yet unbuild, it probaply has not been assigned to a particular factory (eg. Harbin, Xian or Chendu) and is thus listed under the broad CATIC (China National Aero-technology Import and Export Corporation).

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In the book, there where also nice linedrawing of the latter configuration.

Few things that concerns me most are these:

1. The projected turbofan engine WS-6 (in my knowlidge, never entered serial production) is quite similar in size and performance to MiG-23s R-29/35 turbojets and Viggens JT-8 turbofan engines. Could it been pararel-project whit the J-9? I've also heard rumours that R-29 engine was to be reverse-engineered in china for the J-9. As i'm not very knowing of aerodynamics, so have anyone any clue wich engine would been more "ideal" for the plane. Also whit the ideal engine, whats the overall aerodynamic capapilityes of the whole desing (Tailess delta whit canards, but NO FBW-system)?

here's basic data of Ws-6 and R-29:

WS-6
Country: China
Manufacturer: LM
Engine mode:l WS6
Take-off rating (dry): 71.1 kN (15,991 lb) D
Take-off rating (wet): 122.1 kN (27,445 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 2,100 kg (4,630 lb)
Airflow: 155 kg (342 lb)/s
Arrangement: 3F, 11A, a/b
BPR: 1
Diameter: 1,370 mm (53.94 in)
Length: 4,654 mm (183.2 in)
Classification: Jet Engine

R-29-300
Jet Engine ID: 163
Country: Russia
Manufacturer: Soyuz
Engine model: R-29-300
Take-off rating: (dry) 78.5 kN (17,635 lb) D
Take-off rating: (wet) 122.3 kN (27,500 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 1,880 kg (4,145 lb)
Airflow: 110 kg (243 lb)/s
Arrangement: 5A, 6A, a/b
BPR: 0
Diameter: 912 mm (35.9 in)
Length: 4,960 mm (195.0 in)
Classification: Jet Engine
(engine data form venik's aviation page)

2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project? Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes? Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance? Or is it more like that the MiG-23 features from the same supposed egybtian MiGs finded their way to J-8II project after the J-9 was cancelled?

3. When the J-9 project was started and when officically cancelled? Some sort of timeline, and how well it was pararel to J-8II? Was J-9 project "live" during the flirtations whit the west just prior to the 1989 incidence? Could there have been any proposal of western participation on this project?

Well there are many "could there" and "would there"s but feel free to give any toughts what comes to mind (no offtopic BS) Also why do we have to focus on J-9 solely? If you have anything about other cancelled chinese aviation projects, this topic can cover them also. I try to give update from my own research concerning the matter and perhaps introduce some other chinese fighter project lime the DF series or the orginal J-10 project...

J-9 was a delta wing interceptor in direct competition with the J-8. J-8 was chosen because of the more modest demands placed on the Chinese aviation industry. J-9 was cancelled after the selection process, and thus cannot benefit from the J-8II upgrade. However, J-10 actually benefits from J-9'
s design experience.

J-9 was a delta wing interceptor in direct competition with the J-8. J-8 was chosen because of the more modest demands placed on the Chinese aviation industry. J-9 was cancelled after the selection process, and thus cannot benefit from the J-8II upgrade.

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Thats new to me. I assumed that J-9 was more of J-7 repalcement, pararel to bigger J-8. Similar ways as in USSR, MiG-23 and Su-15, wich latter was strikingly similar to J-8II, served at the same time.

But if these two (J-9 and J-8) were competitiors, assume that you ment the first model of J-8, could it bee that J-8II side intakes were taken from the J-9 project?

that's, at least to me, open to debate. You'll have to ask people from the the 611 institute. Although the wind tunnel model of the J-9 I've seen featured side intakes more similar to the Mirage F1, but bigger, like those on the Q-5.


by the way, don't you work?

that's, at least to me, open to debate. You'll have to ask people from the the 611 institute. Although the wind tunnel model of the J-9 I've seen featured side intakes more similar to the Mirage F1, but bigger, like those on the Q-5.

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The line drawing that i talked about had MiG-23 style intakes but with similar shockcones like in Mirages and early protoype version of MiG-23 which also featured MiG-21 type of mid set deltawing and RD-36 lift jets ...The only models that i've seen (they propaply weren't Windtunnel test models) had normal MiG-23 type inlets similar also in J-8II...

by the way, don't you work?

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You mean do i have job? No, im engineer student at the moment...why?

why do I ask? Because you are ALWAYS here.

computer clasrooms, computer class rooms boy!
Basicly after school started, i have noticed that I spend here more time than in other wise, thought it seems to be exact opposite to those still in highschool...You need to know how to copy/paste and type google.com, to get to be an engineer so lots of free time...but lets not drift from topic...

Gollevainen said:

1. The projected turbofan engine WS-6 (in my knowlidge, never entered serial production) is quite similar in size and performance to MiG-23s R-29/35 turbojets and Viggens JT-8 turbofan engines. Could it been pararel-project whit the J-9? I've also heard rumours that R-29 engine was to be reverse-engineered in china for the J-9. As i'm not very knowing of aerodynamics, so have anyone any clue wich engine would been more "ideal" for the plane. Also whit the ideal engine, whats the overall aerodynamic capapilityes of the whole desing (Tailess delta whit canards, but NO FBW-system)?

here's basic data of Ws-6 and R-29:

WS-6
Country: China
Manufacturer: LM
Engine mode:l WS6
Take-off rating (dry): 71.1 kN (15,991 lb) D
Take-off rating (wet): 122.1 kN (27,445 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 2,100 kg (4,630 lb)
Airflow: 155 kg (342 lb)/s
Arrangement: 3F, 11A, a/b
BPR: 1
Diameter: 1,370 mm (53.94 in)
Length: 4,654 mm (183.2 in)
Classification: Jet Engine

R-29-300
Jet Engine ID: 163
Country: Russia
Manufacturer: Soyuz
Engine model: R-29-300
Take-off rating: (dry) 78.5 kN (17,635 lb) D
Take-off rating: (wet) 122.3 kN (27,500 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 1,880 kg (4,145 lb)
Airflow: 110 kg (243 lb)/s
Arrangement: 5A, 6A, a/b
BPR: 0
Diameter: 912 mm (35.9 in)
Length: 4,960 mm (195.0 in)
Classification: Jet Engine
(engine data form venik's aviation page)

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The WS-9 should be a little better than the R-29 since its a turbofan, which means that the specific fuel consumption would be significantly lower. I have heard that the WS-9 was developed for the cancelled Q-6 attack plane.

2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project? Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes? Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance? Or is it more like that the MiG-23 features from the same supposed egybtian MiGs finded their way to J-8II project after the J-9 was cancelled?

Click to expand...

Both the J-8II and the J-9 seem to share the same type of intake that is used on Mig-23 and F-4. I have also heard that there was a J8III project at one time which would have had canards and FBW. There is probably some tech transfer from both J-9 and J-8III to J-10. Origionally, Shenyang(company which makes J-8) had control of both the J8 and J-9 projects, but the control of the J-9 project was later transfered to Chengdu (company which makes the J-10 and FC-1).

3. When the J-9 project was started and when officically cancelled? Some sort of timeline, and how well it was pararel to J-8II? Was J-9 project "live" during the flirtations whit the west just prior to the 1989 incidence? Could there have been any proposal of western participation on this project?

Well there are many "could there" and "would there"s but feel free to give any toughts what comes to mind (no offtopic BS) Also why do we have to focus on J-9 solely? If you have anything about other cancelled chinese aviation projects, this topic can cover them also. I try to give update from my own research concerning the matter and perhaps introduce some other chinese fighter project lime the DF series or the orginal J-10 project...

Click to expand...

Deino is making a chart of all Chinese fighter projects. According to the chart, J-9 was cancelled around 1980.

Thanks for the answers...

Now this Deino's statistic shows that J-9 was started at the same time as J-8 and was continued after J-8 had made it's deput filght. Also if the project was started by Shenyang, wich also is responsiple of J-8, then how can they be each others competiors...is Shenyang welthy enough to make "in-house" offer-contest? I don't belive so. This Deino's pic makes me more covinced of my orginal toughts that J-9 was intended more of J-7s and J-6s replacements, sort like J-10 is today...propelm was that the J-9 was way too complicated for the chinese aviation manufactory industries at that time.

could it be that at the time j-9 was terminated, china wanted to stop using mig design?????