Chinese Engine Development

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by jackbh, Sep 14, 2005.

  1. latenlazy
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    latenlazy Colonel

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    I know. I’m pointing out that we lack the specifics in this sentence, so we don’t have any means of distinguishing which read of the sentence is more accurate.



    I didn’t write the sentence, just trying to help interpret it. And no one’s twisting any meaning. The sentence could be validly be read multiple ways.​


    When there are no grammar particles in Chinese it’s not always more correct to assume the interpretation with the least additional particle additions.

    When there are no specific grammar particles in Chinese everything comes down to interpreting silent relations between subject object and verb. I’m not confusing the two terms. I’m saying in the context of the sentence we’re discussing it could validly be read as *either* of those two terms.
     
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  2. taxiya
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    taxiya Major
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    Yes concept changes over time. However this naming is subjective and depends on who is saying. A publication 世界航空发动机手册 (World Aeroengine Handbook) by Lin Zuoming in 2012 made any engine BPR above 4 as high. The Chinese does categorize WS-20 as a high bypass based on their cut-off ratio.
    P.S. WS-20 is a derivative of WS-10 core, but that does not restrict the designers adding one more HPT to WS-20.
    I suspect this medium bypass engine is for the big bomber, or could be replacing the current DK30 or WS18 on H-6. Rumour has that it is another derivative of WS-10 core.
     
    #4952 taxiya, Dec 15, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  3. taxiya
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    taxiya Major
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    How do you translate 冷却 to intercooled? 冷却 is cooling/cooled. There is no "Inter" in the word.
     
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  4. taxiya
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    taxiya Major
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    To sum up the confusion, in my way of speaking Chinese:
    冷却叶片: cooling blade emphasize the object "blade" while "cooling" is the adjective describing the purpose of the blade. This usage in Chinese sounds like a specially designed blade that serving the purpose of cooling itself or others. It could be further interpreted as a special design of engine that is not conventional turbofan as suggested by some here that the intake air is cooled.
    叶片冷却: blade cooling emphasize the action "cooling" while "blade" is the adjective describing the recipient of the action. This usage would be the common subject in conventional turbofan design.

    Now we don't know whether the guy who wrote the title of the research is
    1. Deficient in Chinese literacy so he wrote something he does not intend to imply
    2. Or, he is actually accurate in describing his research.
    For the moment, I intend to believe the first.

    P.S. Engineering major in China stops literacy education after graduation of high-school. They may but usually does not take any education in writing complicated articles in proper Chinese. There is such courses offered in universities "技术写作" (Technological writing) offered to Master degree but not to Bachelor, even so most Master students are too busy to pass the tech courses or GRE/TOEFL.
     
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  5. latenlazy
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    latenlazy Colonel

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    Yes, exactly. We also need to factor in two other things. First, in China (especially the Mainland, less so in HK and TW) industrial, scientific, and engineering terminology are often shorthanded without specific grammatical relations because it’s just more efficient when you have very long specific technical terms and most everyone who works within a discipline already know the inherent relationships between all the sub-terms. Those relationships can be presumed because they are already predetermined by the actual physical mechanics and properties inherently represented in those terms* (I know this firsthand, my dad’s an engineer, most of our family friends are too, and I work with a lot of Chinese engineers in my current day job).

    Second, there is a lot of regional variation in modifier noun order in Chinese, which is further complicated by both extensive and typical adverbing and nouning of verbs. In fact a lot of our disagreements about how to read this particular sentence really comes down to whether we’re treating 冷却 as a verb or adjective. In a strict formal sense 冷却 is supposed to be a verb, *but* like *all* verbs in Chinese it can be used as a modifier to a noun, and in fact the very structure of the sentence is conducive to this reading.

    *Addendum, this same logic actually isn’t too different from how Classical Chinese works.
     
    #4955 latenlazy, Dec 15, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
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  6. Tirdent
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    Tirdent Junior Member
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    I suppose it's theoretically possible, but the scale of changes required means it's rarely if ever done. I can't think of a single example off the top of my head - not even the CFM56-5C (long-range A340, where the higher efficiency of a two-stage HPT would've helped).
     
  7. Hendrik_2000
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    Hendrik_2000 Brigadier

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    This is industrial gas turbine but the first stage blade technology is more or less the same via Adam Wang

    China achieved its first self-casting of large-scale first-class stator blades of heavy-duty gas turbines of 300 MW class

    2018-12-26 08:30:02 Source: Technology Daily
    https://www.guancha.cn/industry-science/2018_12_26_484630.shtml

    According to the Science and Technology Daily reported on December 26, China's first self-contained 300 MW class F heavy-duty gas turbine turbine first-stage vane castings passed the appraisal on the 25th. This is the first important breakthrough made by China in the core components of the heavy-duty gas turbine hot end, and it is also the most important milestone achievement of the national science and technology major project “Aero Engine and Gas Turbine”.

    According to the State Power Investment Group Co., Ltd. (hereinafter referred to as the National Power Investment), the gas turbine, which is known as the “crown pearl of the equipment manufacturing industry”, has a history of 50 years in China, but before that China only had heavy-duty parts for heavy-duty gas turbines. Manufacturing and assembly capacity, has not yet mastered the core technology of hot-end component design and manufacturing, and has no independent research and development capabilities. Turbine first stage vane is a typical hot end part of heavy-duty gas turbines, and its core manufacturing technology has been absolutely blocked abroad.

    [​IMG]


    300MW heavy-duty gas turbine technology verification machine CGT-60F gas turbine full three-dimensional composite tilting turbine first-stage static leaf (text irrelevant) Image from Tsinghua Holdings

    Thirteen experts from the "two machines" special expert advisory committee, three major powers, Beijing University of Science and Technology, SINOMACH, and Fushun Special Steel agreed that the China National Electric Power Investment Co., Ltd. will jointly re-ignite the Chinese Academy of Sciences, the Institute of Metals of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, and Jiangsu Yongsheng. The research has not only delivered a set of qualified quality blades, but also delivered a set of curing process system and quality assurance system, laying a good foundation for turbine blade shaping design, and creating a number of records: the first domestically designed heavy-duty gas turbine large size First-class static leaf; the first domestic first-stage static leaf mother alloy with complete independent intellectual property rights, which has overcome the pure smelting technology; the first domestic self-casting heavy-duty gas turbine large-size first-class vane, which has overcome the precision of large-sized complex blades. Casting technology.

    [​IMG]

    Expert Advisory Committee Picture from National Power Investment

    It is reported that the "two-machine" special project was officially launched in 2015, which is the latest in the national science and technology major project; in 2016, it was listed as the first of the 100 major projects by the national "13th Five-Year Plan". China's joint re-ignition is the main body of the "two-machine" special medium and heavy-duty gas turbines.

    Background information

    At present, only a few countries in the world, such as the United States, Britain, Russia, Germany, France and Japan, have the ability to independently develop advanced gas turbines. These countries have developed gas turbines of different power grades ranging from tens of kilowatts to hundreds of thousands of kilowatts by means of technological advantages and comprehensive national strength, and they are widely used in the military and civilian fields. The gas turbine is mainly developed and applied by the development path of “light gas turbine developed by mature aviation engine and developed by heavy-duty gas turbine transplanted aero engine technology”.

    Gas turbines belong to the fields of technology, capital and talents, and are strategic industries with long development cycle and long life cycle. For a long time, the developed countries in the world have always invested in gas turbines as a strategic industry, investing heavily in the development and development of new gas turbine products and technologies, improving and improving the performance of gas turbines, and greatly promoting the development of the gas turbine industry. In order to maintain their gas turbine technology advantages and always lead in the market competition, western developed countries have formulated special development plans for gas turbines, such as the US ATS plan (Advanced Turbine System Plan) and the CAGT Plan (Joint Cycle Gas Turbine Plan). EC's EC-ATS plan, Japan's "new daylight" plan and "coal gasification combined cycle power system". The implementation of these plans has greatly promoted the research and application of advanced technologies for gas turbines, and has reserved technology for the development of new gas turbines, which has played a decisive role in maintaining the world's leading position and advantages.

    In the field of heavy-duty gas turbines, from 2001 to 2007, China introduced more than 50 sets of F/E-class heavy-duty gas turbines of GE, MHI and Siemens with a total of 20 million kilowatts in three ways of “bundling and bidding, market-changing technology”. The four joint productions of -GE, Dongqi-MHI, SAIC-Siemens and Nanqi-GE are domestically produced. The current localization rate is nearly 70%. The foreign party insists on not transferring any design technology and hot-end parts manufacturing and control of gas turbines. System technology makes it less likely to transfer any technology of advanced (G/H) gas turbines. In the industrial chain of heavy-duty gas turbines, our manufacturing process lacks independent research and development capabilities. (Source: Civil Aviation Website)
     
  8. DGBJCLAU
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    DGBJCLAU New Member
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    Very thorough piece. Did you or anyone else do the wonderful translation?

     
  9. by78
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    by78 Major

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    According to Jane's...

    And from Global Times...
     
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  10. DGBJCLAU
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    DGBJCLAU New Member
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    Fascinating. What kind of airframe is going to be integrated with the engine? I have no idea... anyone?
     
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